Rails

[kermik0513]

I have diamond tables. If I go to kick at a ball, or bank a ball, when it comes of the second rail and reversed. For example. If I bank a ball cross side and miss long, the cue ball will reverse backwards and possibly make it in the other side. I believe it’s worse if you hit it harder. That’s on all 12 tables.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

I have diamond tables. If I go to kick at a ball, or bank a ball, when it comes of the second rail and reversed. For example. If I bank a ball cross side and miss long, the cue ball will reverse backwards and possibly make it in the other side. I believe it’s worse if you hit it harder. That’s on all 12 tables.

What version are they? Red or Blue label. Also what size are they? The 7' & 8' have black diamond k-55 cuishions and the 9' have Artemis Cushions.

Take a video and post it on Youtube so we all can see it?

TFT

 

[realkingcobra]

I have diamond tables. If I go to kick at a ball, or bank a ball, when it comes of the second rail and reversed. For example. If I bank a ball cross side and miss long, the cue ball will reverse backwards and possibly make it in the other side. I believe it’s worse if you hit it harder. That’s on all 12 tables.

When was the cloth replaced last?

 

[kermik0513]

What version are they? Red or Blue label. Also what size are they? The 7' & 8' have black diamond k-55 cuishions and the 9' have Artemis Cushions.

Take a video and post it on Youtube so we all can see it?

TFT

7 ft red labels 10 of them and 2 9ft reds. It does it on all the tables Also where on you tube would I post it?

 

[kermik0513]

When was the cloth replaced last?

It’s about to get replaced again soon. 6 months probably

 

[JoeyInCali]

I wonder how long it would take for Diamond re-profile those rails and install the right cushions ( 9 footers ) .
If needed of course.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

I wonder how long it would take for Diamond re-profile those rails and install the right cushions.
If needed of course.

The "right cushions" What would those be? Black Diamond K-55 comes on red and blue label 7' Pro Ams.

TFT

 

[JoeyInCali]

The "right cushions" What would those be? Black Diamond K-55 comes on red and blue label 7' Pro Ams.

TFT

If needed as I implied.

Who knows what's on those 9 footers now?

 

[trentfromtoledo]

If needed as I implied.

Who knows what's on those 9 footers now?

Artemis for the last almost 10 years.

TFT

 

[realkingcobra]

It’s about to get replaced again soon. 6 months probably

Located in Waco, next to a paint store?

Call me, 702-927-5689

 

[fastone371]

The "right cushions" What would those be? Black Diamond K-55 comes on red and blue label 7' Pro Ams.

TFT

As I understand it its not the cushions that are the "problem" on the Diamond Red Label tables, rather its the sub-rail that the cushion attaches to. The alleged difference between Red and Blue label tables is the angle of the subrail.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

As I understand it its not the cushions that are the "problem" on the Diamond Red Label tables, rather its the sub-rail that the cushion attaches to. The alleged difference between Red and Blue label tables is the angle of the subrail.

Correct. RKC changed the profile for 7' 8' for black diamond k-55 and 9' for artemis. I wonder if they all have the same angle now though? RKC chime in?

TFT

 

[realkingcobra]

Correct. RKC changed the profile for 7' 8' for black diamond k-55 and 9' for artemis. I wonder if they all have the same angle now though? RKC chime in?

TFT

It's not the angle/bevel the cushions are mounted on that makes them different. As I've explained in the past, I'll explain it once more. A+B=C A is the known sub-rail thickness from the surface of the slate to the top back of the cushions. C is the targeted known nose height based on 63 1/2% +/- 1% of the ball height. These figures were based on sub-rails being 1 11/16" thick, and with the K55 triangle profile Brunswick cushions.

OK, in comes modern manufacturers, with sub-rails anywhere from 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" thick.

B is the unknown part of the formula that can't have an answer until you first decide A and C, as the overall effect of B is the reaction of the balls and cushions.

If you have 2 sets of rails that have the exact same let's say 1 29/64" of an inch nose height, BUT one of the sets of rails has a 1 3/4" subrail thickness, and the second set of rails has a subrail thickness of 1 11/16" of an inch, what changed that makes the 2 tables play differently????

A 1/16" of an inch difference in the sub-rail thickness is all it takes to get rails to play like the Diamond red labels, or any table for that matter using a 1 3/4" subrail thickness.

The alignment of the body of the cushion behind the nose of the cushions WILL effect the playing reactions of those very same cushions on different rails with different specs.

The 63 1/2% +/- 1% of the l height ONLY applies to 1 11/16" thick sub-rails and ONLY with K55 profile cushions. Do ALL of you understand what I just posted or do I need to repeat myself???

If sub-rails are 1 5/8" or 1 9/16" or 1 1/2" thick, the nose height of 63 1/2% +/- no longer applies. And just so people understand, K66 cushions are a completely different triangle design when compared to the K55 cushion profile, and DO NOT WORK ON 1 11/16" THICK SUB-RAILS!!!!

So now to clarify the unknown answer of the C in the formula, until you can answer A+B, you have no idea what C is. All C does is give you the bevel to put A & B together.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

It's not the angle/bevel the cushions are mounted on that makes them different. As I've explained in the past, I'll explain it once more. A+B=C A is the known sub-rail thickness from the surface of the slate to the top back of the cushions. C is the targeted known nose height based on 63 1/2% +/- 1% of the ball height. These figures were based on sub-rails being 1 11/16" thick, and with the K55 triangle profile Brunswick cushions.

OK, in comes modern manufacturers, with sub-rails anywhere from 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" thick.

B is the unknown part of the formula that can't have an answer until you first decide A and C, as the overall effect of B is the reaction of the balls and cushions.

If you have 2 sets of rails that have the exact same let's say 1 29/64" of an inch nose height, BUT one of the sets of rails has a 1 3/4" subrail thickness, and the second set of rails has a subrail thickness of 1 11/16" of an inch, what changed that makes the 2 tables play differently????

A 1/16" of an inch difference in the sub-rail thickness is all it takes to get rails to play like the Diamond red labels, or any table for that matter using a 1 3/4" subrail thickness.

The alignment of the body of the cushion behind the nose of the cushions WILL effect the playing reactions of those very same cushions on different rails with different specs.

The 63 1/2% +/- 1% of the l height ONLY applies to 1 11/16" thick sub-rails and ONLY with K55 profile cushions. Do ALL of you understand what I just posted or do I need to repeat myself???

If sub-rails are 1 5/8" or 1 9/16" or 1 1/2" thick, the nose height of 63 1/2% +/- no longer applies. And just so people understand, K66 cushions are a completely different triangle design when compared to the K55 cushion profile, and DO NOT WORK ON 1 11/16" THICK SUB-RAILS!!!!

So now to clarify the unknown answer of the C in the formula, until you can answer A+B, you have no idea what C is. All C does is give you the bevel to put A & B together.

Nice!!!

So are diamond rails all the same thickness?

TFT

 

[fastone371]

It's not the angle/bevel the cushions are mounted on that makes them different. As I've explained in the past, I'll explain it once more. A+B=C A is the known sub-rail thickness from the surface of the slate to the top back of the cushions. C is the targeted known nose height based on 63 1/2% +/- 1% of the ball height. These figures were based on sub-rails being 1 11/16" thick, and with the K55 triangle profile Brunswick cushions.

OK, in comes modern manufacturers, with sub-rails anywhere from 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" thick.

B is the unknown part of the formula that can't have an answer until you first decide A and C, as the overall effect of B is the reaction of the balls and cushions.

If you have 2 sets of rails that have the exact same let's say 1 29/64" of an inch nose height, BUT one of the sets of rails has a 1 3/4" subrail thickness, and the second set of rails has a subrail thickness of 1 11/16" of an inch, what changed that makes the 2 tables play differently????

A 1/16" of an inch difference in the sub-rail thickness is all it takes to get rails to play like the Diamond red labels, or any table for that matter using a 1 3/4" subrail thickness.

The alignment of the body of the cushion behind the nose of the cushions WILL effect the playing reactions of those very same cushions on different rails with different specs.

The 63 1/2% +/- 1% of the l height ONLY applies to 1 11/16" thick sub-rails and ONLY with K55 profile cushions. Do ALL of you understand what I just posted or do I need to repeat myself???

If sub-rails are 1 5/8" or 1 9/16" or 1 1/2" thick, the nose height of 63 1/2% +/- no longer applies. And just so people understand, K66 cushions are a completely different triangle design when compared to the K55 cushion profile, and DO NOT WORK ON 1 11/16" THICK SUB-RAILS!!!!

So now to clarify the unknown answer of the C in the formula, until you can answer A+B, you have no idea what C is. All C does is give you the bevel to put A & B together.

It looks to me according to what you said the thickness of my Gold Crown rails were changed to accommodate my new K55 cushions that replaced my Monarch Superspeeds. Is that correct??

 

[JulioRice]

It is not my intention to hijack this thread but would like to pose more questions as I feel they are in line with this thread. And I would simply like a good in depth understanding. So...

First off, it sounds like the whole system works together to make a table play correctly. It is NOT solely a matter of nose height. If a nose sits too low we get ball hop and if it sits too high the balls get trapped under the cushion and it plays dead. But let's say for the purpose of illustration that we have a sub-rail thickness of 2" and K-66 rubber. We can cut the face of the sub-rail to whatever angle is necessary to achieve the often quoted nose height of 1 7/16" This would cause the main body or "meat" of the cushion to be rotated around in such a way that the ball would not rebound off of it correctly. We could create the same illustration exaggerated in the other direction with say a 1" sub-rail. Hopefully you get the idea. The point is... Certain rubber profiles, (K-55, K-66, Accufast, Superspeed, and others) work better with certain sub-rail heights. True or False?

And.. Depending which system is in use the ideal nose height may vary..??,, I would imagine due to the design and construction of the profile behind the nose..?? True or False?

So assuming the above is correct... Is there a place where this information exists?? Or do we have to search and read through past posts on the topic and hopefully get to the correct information??

Next question... Is there such a thing as, "this table plays RIGHT and that table plays WRONG."?? Within reason of course. I'm not talking about a table not being level or rails being completely bowed and mounted crooked and Simonis being installed upside down. I'm talking about a well setup well built table. I try to read everything I can on the Gold Crown vs. Diamond banter and it always seems to boil down to preference. And people will often cite that they are different, but I never get a good understanding of how they are different. Aside from pocket geometry, I get that. But the finer points. Like why Artemis is the best. I know it's the best, everyone says so. But I can't explain to a customer WHY it's the best.

I'll shut up now. Always a pleasure and as always. Take it easy. Julio

 

[realkingcobra]

It is not my intention to hijack this thread but would like to pose more questions as I feel they are in line with this thread. And I would simply like a good in depth understanding. So...

First off, it sounds like the whole system works together to make a table play correctly. It is NOT solely a matter of nose height. If a nose sits too low we get ball hop and if it sits too high the balls get trapped under the cushion and it plays dead. But let's say for the purpose of illustration that we have a sub-rail thickness of 2" and K-66 rubber. We can cut the face of the sub-rail to whatever angle is necessary to achieve the often quoted nose height of 1 7/16" This would cause the main body or "meat" of the cushion to be rotated around in such a way that the ball would not rebound off of it correctly. We could create the same illustration exaggerated in the other direction with say a 1" sub-rail. Hopefully you get the idea. The point is... Certain rubber profiles, (K-55, K-66, Accufast, Superspeed, and others) work better with certain sub-rail heights. True or False?

And.. Depending which system is in use the ideal nose height may vary..??,, I would imagine due to the design and construction of the profile behind the nose..?? True or False?

So assuming the above is correct... Is there a place where this information exists?? Or do we have to search and read through past posts on the topic and hopefully get to the correct information??

Next question... Is there such a thing as, "this table plays RIGHT and that table plays WRONG."?? Within reason of course. I'm not talking about a table not being level or rails being completely bowed and mounted crooked and Simonis being installed upside down. I'm talking about a well setup well built table. I try to read everything I can on the Gold Crown vs. Diamond banter and it always seems to boil down to preference. And people will often cite that they are different, but I never get a good understanding of how they are different. Aside from pocket geometry, I get that. But the finer points. Like why Artemis is the best. I know it's the best, everyone says so. But I can't explain to a customer WHY it's the best.

I'll shut up now. Always a pleasure and as always. Take it easy. Julio

Just call me, 702-927-5689

 

[realkingcobra]

It looks to me according to what you said the thickness of my Gold Crown rails were changed to accommodate my new K55 cushions that replaced my Monarch Superspeeds. Is that correct??

Your rails were already at the correct 1 11/16" but with the switch over from the Monarch K55 profile cushions that are 1 1/8" wide to the modern Superspeed K55 profile cushions that are 1 1/4" wide, the rails would have to be cut back to accommodate the wider cushions. Reason being, without correcting with width of the sub-rail the newer cushions would end up hanging over the bottom of the sub-rail, not allowing the cushions to be fully glued up, and the playing surface would be effected, making it smaller. If done correctly, the nose of the cushions to the formica finish on the top rail will measure 2" if not, it'll measure 2 1/8".

 

[realkingcobra]

It is not my intention to hijack this thread but would like to pose more questions as I feel they are in line with this thread. And I would simply like a good in depth understanding. So...

First off, it sounds like the whole system works together to make a table play correctly. It is NOT solely a matter of nose height. If a nose sits too low we get ball hop and if it sits too high the balls get trapped under the cushion and it plays dead. But let's say for the purpose of illustration that we have a sub-rail thickness of 2" and K-66 rubber. We can cut the face of the sub-rail to whatever angle is necessary to achieve the often quoted nose height of 1 7/16" This would cause the main body or "meat" of the cushion to be rotated around in such a way that the ball would not rebound off of it correctly. We could create the same illustration exaggerated in the other direction with say a 1" sub-rail. Hopefully you get the idea. The point is... Certain rubber profiles, (K-55, K-66, Accufast, Superspeed, and others) work better with certain sub-rail heights. True or False?

And.. Depending which system is in use the ideal nose height may vary..??,, I would imagine due to the design and construction of the profile behind the nose..?? True or False?

So assuming the above is correct... Is there a place where this information exists?? Or do we have to search and read through past posts on the topic and hopefully get to the correct information??

Next question... Is there such a thing as, "this table plays RIGHT and that table plays WRONG."?? Within reason of course. I'm not talking about a table not being level or rails being completely bowed and mounted crooked and Simonis being installed upside down. I'm talking about a well setup well built table. I try to read everything I can on the Gold Crown vs. Diamond banter and it always seems to boil down to preference. And people will often cite that they are different, but I never get a good understanding of how they are different. Aside from pocket geometry, I get that. But the finer points. Like why Artemis is the best. I know it's the best, everyone says so. But I can't explain to a customer WHY it's the best.

I'll shut up now. Always a pleasure and as always. Take it easy. Julio

And sometimes, even if the nose height is 1 7/16" you can get ball hopp.

 

[JulioRice]

And sometimes, even if the nose height is 1 7/16" you can get ball hopp.

Why? What does it?