Random thought on cues...

[LoGiC]

Perhaps its just me being the utilitarian I am, but as I sit here ill, I began to think about some cues. I see ebay auctions for Balabushkas and Szambotis and other exotic cues, and I wonder what made them so good? With today's technology we should be able to make a cue that is just as respected when it comes to playability.

I understand that today's cue makers are trying to make a name for themselves, and many have in the billiard's industry, but if these cues from the past were so good- why change them? Couldn't you just copy the build (not the cosmetic design, although I love the classic look) and have a new looking, great playing cue? What makes these cues so damn valuable? I'm sure if today I saw someone shooting with a Balabushka, I'd think they were crazy because of the collectors value on such a cue, but at the same time, if the cue was so damn amazing, why would you let it sit in a case and collect dust? You would want to play with it, I know I would.

This is just a random thought, but does anyone know why these cues have such a great playability. Not a response like "craftsmanship," but what they actually did that made their cues withstand the test of time. Why do Balabushkas play so well (a matter of opinion really), was it the shaft taper, an implement in the butt, the joint?

I don't mean to bash anything or anyone if it comes off sounding like "I hate today's custom cue makers." In fact, I hope they all survive the test of time too, so I can tell my grand kids some day "I had the chance to shoot with one of those cues."

 

[Franky]

what makes a hit

A better answer would come from an experienced cuemaker. However, I tend to think that in addition to the craftsmanship, the way the different parts of a cue are assembled plays the most important role.

How tight are the tolerances?

How has the cuemaker tried to protect the cue against warpage?

Are the points inlays, deep-cut, or spliced?

How is the weight distributed?

How good is the shaft wood?

How solid and vibration free is the overall design of the cue?

Those are some things I tend to consider at least.

 

[whitey2]

Ingenuity beats technology in some cases...

Ingenuity beats technology in some cases, if you ask me. Can we copy the Great Pyramids?

I was under the impression that Balabushka took some of his secrets to the grave with him
when he died in 1975. The primary of these might revolve around the seasoning process of
the wood.

 

[StevenPWaldon]

I've heard from many modern cuemakers that the old Balabuashkas, Szambotis, etc are inferior to the cues produced today.

The high prices of the old masters is a lot in part due to their collectibility and historical significance.

Cue technology has grown up at an exponential rate in the past few decades. I look at someone like Ernie Guttierez, who is a mechanical fanatic and also plays pool. He is always looking for new and innovating ways using the latest technologies to make his cues better (Ginacue, if you don't know).

The famous old cues were nothing fancy by today's standards. What makes them special was that at the time, nothing like that had come out. Nowadays it seems almost any serious player has a custom cue or two (I do). But 50 years ago, that level of quality and craftsmanship was unheard of. He started an entire industry through his precedent of workmanship and skill. That's why they're so great.

 

[whitey2]

I hope Bob Jewett chimes in on this...

I hope Bob Jewett chimes in on this...

I believe he not yet found a cue that has less deflection that his (original) Balabushka.

 

[whitey2]

I hope Bob Jewett chimes in on this...

I hope Bob Jewett chimes in on this...

I believe he once said that he has not yet found a cue which produces less squirt
than his (original, not replica) Balabushka.

Which is great, if that's what you (think you) need!

 

[Fatboy]

I wonder why too, G.Szams play better than anything, Tads play almost as good, but /some of the new cue makers with better tollerances, materials etc cant make a cue that plays better, I believe it has to do with the age of the wood, wood changes over time and the older the better because it matures like in violins the older ones sound better.

 

[Sharkeyes]

I think what you're asking is very similar to what many musician and instrument aficionados are asking as well. Take a 2 million dollar Antonius Stradivarius violin that was made centuries ago and try to duplicate it. No one has been able to copy it exactly. Some speculate it has to do with the difference in wood quality due to global climate during specific times of Earth's history. Some speculate it has to do with certain secret techniques that master craftsmen used to produce their art which has been lost since. Whatever the reason, older pieces are like collecting antiques and paintings. Items which have a limited quantity in the world are only going to appreciate in value over time. Thats why most of those bushkas and older cues sit in cases instead of being played with.

Keep this in mind for future reference: An artist's masterpiece is worth 10x more after he dies.

 

[sky..]

...
Keep this in mind for future reference: An artist's masterpiece is worth 10x more after he dies.

Very true. Just look at how many poets became famous after they died.

 

[3andstop]

I think its much like fine art. People pay thousands and thousands of dollars for paintings. If you have the cash and if you are into it then it becomes a collectable thing.

IMO although cues hit differently, so do people play differently. If it feels good to you, I believe it will play good for you so long as the basics are met with design.

I think once you get over a few hundred bucks for a cue you are paying for the art factor such as inlays and such. A well made sneaky pete is as good as a multi point inlaid cue.

 

[StevenPWaldon]

Sad but true.

A friend of mine knows Bert Schrager personally, and has been a friend of his for 20 years or so. He collects a lot of Schragers, and has commissioned Schrager for most of them.

It was odd one day, when he spoke of his collection increasing in value when Scrager passes away. This was 3-4 years ago, when Scrager's health started to decline. The friend wanted to place another order before it was too late, and one of the big reasons was the value in a few years when the Schrag-meister kicked the can. =T

Very true. Just look at how many poets became famous after they died.

 

[MrLucky]

my thoughts also....

I've heard from many modern cuemakers that the old Balabuashkas, Szambotis, etc are inferior to the cues produced today.

The high prices of the old masters is a lot in part due to their collectibility and historical significance.

Cue technology has grown up at an exponential rate in the past few decades. I look at someone like Ernie Guttierez, who is a mechanical fanatic and also plays pool. He is always looking for new and innovating ways using the latest technologies to make his cues better (Ginacue, if you don't know).

The famous old cues were nothing fancy by today's standards. What makes them special was that at the time, nothing like that had come out. Nowadays it seems almost any serious player has a custom cue or two (I do). But 50 years ago, that level of quality and craftsmanship was unheard of. He started an entire industry through his precedent of workmanship and skill. That's why they're so great.

Todays technology and improved tools have raised the standard for fine cues ! everything was pretty much by hand and labor intensive in the '50s and 60s I have an old custom made by a popular cuemaker and it plays well but not better than a few of my newer cues!

 

[classiccues]

I've heard from many modern cuemakers that the old Balabuashkas, Szambotis, etc are inferior to the cues produced today.

Thats cause some would rather you spend 6 thousand with them, instead of buying blue chip.

The high prices of the old masters is a lot in part due to their collectibility and historical significance.

Plus they play good...

Cue technology has grown up at an exponential rate in the past few decades. I look at someone like Ernie Guttierez, who is a mechanical fanatic and also plays pool. He is always looking for new and innovating ways using the latest technologies to make his cues better (Ginacue, if you don't know).

The famous old cues were nothing fancy by today's standards. What makes them special was that at the time, nothing like that had come out. Nowadays it seems almost any serious player has a custom cue or two (I do). But 50 years ago, that level of quality and craftsmanship was unheard of. He started an entire industry through his precedent of workmanship and skill. That's why they're so great.

Since there are still people playing with Szambotis and Balabushka's, and playing well, Davenport, etc.. there must be something to it, right? Well just like the inferior comment is "opinion", so is the quote about technology. Yes, there are machines that do inlays in rates unheard of by the pantograph, yes there are machines that cut 6 shafts at a time, yes there is nelsonite, on and on and on.. BUT the core component of the cue is still the same, the wood. IMHO however, since there are a plethora of cuemakers out there, probably more than 100x the amount of Szamboti and Balabushka's time, IMHO the amount of good wood, especially shaftwood has declined. Do you know how much wood was discarded by Szamboti and Bushka? Now think about that then try to realize how 400 cuemakers are all getting AAA+++ shaftwood.

I think from a playability standpoint, Bushkas and Botis have more than stood the test of time. But playability is subjective, one mans great is another mans garbage. There are some very good cuemakers making some very good hitting cues. There are some name cuemakers which hits don't do anything for me, then there are some not well knowns that I think play very solid.

Joe

 

[StormHotRod300]

A friend of mine who went to Valley Forge, ran into someone/ maybe a friend who had a Balabushka (original) and played about a rack or two with it, and said, the first couple of hits with it, He was like OMG!!!! but then noticed the cue actually played like SHYT!!!!!! He told me the only thing that made the cue play average was the novelty of playing with a 25,000$ cue lol.

He said, a freaking Players cue played better than this Balabushka lol

Some of the vintage cue's are just that Vintage cues. I'd love to have a Bushka, but unless it plays better than my Gilbert, I doubt I'd use it.

 

[Tommy-D]

> I've hit balls with 2 Bushka's,one hit and one miss. The steel jointed one hit awesome,the ivory jointed one was a complete clunker. Not only did it play bad,it honestly felt like something was broken inside the cue,and it made all kinds of racket. I've never hit a ball with an ivory jointed Gus,but all 8 steel jointed ones played great and sounded even better. The only steel jointed Barry I've hit balls with was Rodney's. Both of the ivory jointed ones played really nice,much like a Schick.


Something I've always thought was kind of funny is how things become much more valuable after someone is gone. Gus only charged like 2500 for the nicest cue he ever made,according to legend,but imagine what that cue would be worth now if Lucky let go of it. George typically charged like 150 with 2 shafts,and we all know what kind of prices they command. How about this example. Vincent Van Gogh sold his "Sunflowers" painting for a mere 75 bucks while he was alive,and it sold for over 40 million at an auction several years ago. Tommy D.

 

[whitey2]

Just a follow up

Just a follow up for clarification. I reread my post, and it it could come off as insulting (to
Bob even!).

Earlier, when I mentioned "Great, if that's what you think you need", when speaking of
a Balabushka, I was sort of mocking (beginner type) folks who immediately seek out a real
expensive cue thinking it will have a "magical effect", and bring their game up right away.

I remember a long time ago, when I had a low end Meucci, and one day I walk into the pool
room, and there is a used Meucci Road Agent in the display case. I ask the owner for the
price, and he comes back with "You just bought a brand new Meucci a few weeks ago, why do
you want a different one already?". So, I tell him that I saw that same one in the catalog and
liked the design, and since it was more expensive, I thought it would be a better cue, and
might help my game out. He said some words I'll never forget:

"It might make you *look* like a better player, but it won't make you *shoot* like a better player."

 

[classiccues]

He said some words I'll never forget:

"It might make you *look* like a better player, but it won't make you *shoot* like a better player."

Whitey,
I have a similar saying when someone asks me to justify a 4,000 dollar cue, I say "Think of how good you'll look losing"..

JV

 

[ShootingArts]

Letting the cat out of the bag

The old cue makers split a very small quantity of unobtainium between them. This element is rare and difficult to find. Fortunately, since only a fraction of a gram is required to make a difference, the small amount first discovered by Michelangelo and Leonardo DiVinci still has some remaining to use today. One regrettable problem with unobtainium though is that something has to age for years for the unobtainium to leech all through the cue, violin, painting, sculpture, or whatever and become effective. Once this happens the quality and value of any item containing the unobtainium soars!

I just happen to have a pea sized sample that can be purchased, for a price! Be warned though, it normally takes a minimum of twenty to thirty years for unobtainium to be effective and it sometimes takes generations. I will 100% guarantee to the original buyer that the unobtainium will perform as claimed and refund full purchase price if the buyer is dissatisfied after giving it time to work properly however.

Hu