Ratings - are you qualified to rate someone's speed?

Egg McDogit

Egg McDogit

street player
Silver Member
branching off from the ratings questions - just out of curiosity, what speed do you think you need to be in order to rate someone else's speed? for instance, can a C player tell if they're watching a B+ player in high gear or an A player? What is your speed and how accurately do you think you rate others?
 
I'm sure that there are a lot of people that are average in skill, that have a vast knowledge of cue sports and wouldn't have a problem judging someones speed.
 
I'm A Mediocre Player, At Best. And I Can Easily Tell In A Short Period Of Time What Rating Someone Is Or Should Have. I Know Guys That Play Ten Times Better Than I Do, That Couldn't Tell You After Watching Someone For Hours.
 
Unless there are serious flaws in a players fundamentals, nobody can accurately gauge a players speed just by seeing them play once.

Everyone has good and bad days. The first time I saw Efren play on tv he had a bad match. He couldn't seem to get anything right. I remember thinking "hes not all that good".

I had a terrible day a few months back, I couldn't seem to get anything going, anyone who saw me would think I was C player or a B- at best. On the other hand I have had days where you would have sworn I was the house pro.

But to answer your question, it doesn't take a good player to recognize another good player. Its just like in any other sport. Do you think team scouts are pros themselves?
 
I have always had a knack for handicapping players. I play about a B speed so I usually play big action matches from the rail. My buddies who like to sweat always want me to steer them and I have a couple of buddies that stake a few big dogs and when I am around they always get my take on a match beforehand. I guess the old saying is correct, Those that can't play coach.
 
Ktown D said:
I guess the old saying is correct, Those that can't play coach.
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I agree completely. I know I will never be a great player, the balls are blurry all the way at the other end of the table. But I've run 9-ball and 8-ball tournaments and I am usually correct on someone elses speed after playing them or seeing them play a few matches. By the way they stroke, stand, time it takes them to take their shot, how they line up and the choices they make in which order to play their balls. Even if someone is missing a few shots here and there, you can tell what level they are at by how they play rather than what they accomplish on their turn.
 
I think anyone with knowledge can tell how good another player is, your level of knowledge will enable you to make a better assessment. For example, you don't have to shoot 5 under par to know Tiger is a good golfer, although you would need to know how golf was supposed to be played (as opposed to having to play well yourself) in order to determine just how good he was. Perhaps a better example is chess - Kasparov is good, but if you don't understand and appreciate the difficulties in playing excellent chess, you couldn't really appreciate just how good.

Even between pocket billiard games, you need to understand subtle differences to be able to rate players - someone who is a top A player in 9 ball isn't automatically a top A player in one pocket.

The short answer is, you don't have to play good to be able to judge, but you have to KNOW the game you are evaluating.

-td
 
Rating?
Speed?

First thing I look for is "Consistancy". Second thing I look for is "Knowledge of game".

There's plenty of games out there, ranging in just as many disciplins.

If I see someone making more banks than cuts, or more kicks than safties, or getting mad than staying calm, it tells alot about their knowledge level.

Keeping a record helps understand a person's capability, as long as the people keeping the stats pay attention. But nine times out of ten, it depends on consistancy.

Tracking wins vs. losses, balls made per inning, or the amount of safties played per match are all nice guages. I'm not sure what else anyone can do to make any rating scale better, but the good ol' standby of "gut feeling" can make any rating ambigious.
 
I can usually watch a player to guage their speed against mine for matching up, and be fairly close to correct.....

I do think you need to have a good grasp on all games to watch a player and guage speed based on performance.

One exception might be 1 pocket. You can play that game very well and never look flashy.

Gerry
 
According to the ratings posted in another thread, I'm a B. But I would consider myself a C working on being a B. (Still have plenty of bad C habits to get rid of.)

So far as determining how good other players are, I think this is a *knowledge* thing. Basically knowing about leaving position for your next shot - breaking out balls, etc. is the trick.

Seeing another player be able to place an object ball for a later breakout early on in the game - realize what they are doing, seeing them leave good position for their next shot, seeing them break out balls, seeing them shoot a combo and leaving the cue ball in a good position for wherever the first ball in the combo winds up after the shot, etc. Being able to kick, bank, play safeties. Run out an impossible clustered mess, etc.

So a beginner may know someone is a good player because they see them run a lot of balls, however someone with more knowledge of the game will see shots and understand what is going on. How difficult a shot actually was even though it looks easy - where the cue ball went after the shot.

So what specific skills does a player have? What are they capable of doing?
 
Judging speed

The best persons to judge speed is the best players and most experienced
players. Players that are good enough to play lots of $100 a set or more would probably fall in that range, or if you had to go to strictly league and tournament players, the ones in the top 5% of the league or tournament.

First off, someone can be a pretty good player, and not know exactly what to look for in judging another's speed. Money players learn this over time from matching up, to possible spots in a matchup, or to keep from being hustled.
Their are subtle nuances that give away a players skill no matter what you may be seeing at the time.

We use a number scale here in the Midwest, 2-12 9 ball scale, sometimes for tournament rankings, but the real scale is how you fall on that scale for money matches. IMO, noone under a 7 is qualified to rate a player.
 
All I know is after a few shots from the other guy I can tell you if I am in trouble or not, if I think I am my games goes into overdrive. If my opponent sees shots that I have not seen in my view of the layout then I might be in trouble. I don't judge, I survive.
 
This is kind of difficult to say.

It's going to vary greatly depending on the rating you're talking about. IMO there's no way that a B player can rate an A+ - pro level player. There's a reason that they are a B or below player. Almost every B player that I've ever seen has some fundamental flaw in their stroke or execution, but beyond the mechanics of the game their biggest limiting factor and the biggest limiting factor between low A's and strong A's is their shot selection and decision making process. There's no way that a player who can't understand those subtleties can accurately rate someone. So yeahj if they're a low A to lower rating and it is because of an inability to overcome some physical deficiency and not lack of knowledge, poor shot selection, then yes it is possible they can accurately rate someone higher than them, but otherwise, no WAY in hell.

How do you think hustlers managew to convince people that they are just lucky? and against really good players too. It's because they use subtleties of the game that lesser players aren't aware of. I can jump up on shots, miss every fifth or sixth ball and still win in a match and the person will think I am a lucky B player or that I was off that day and just happened to get some lucky rolls, when in fact I was specifically making shot selections based on liklihood of safetying if I missed etc, that most lesser players just aren't aware of or don't think about.

There are a lot of players who are great shot makers, in fact are as good of shot makers as some of the very best, but it's their knowledge of the strategies and poor shot selection that prevent them from winning. If you go for a shot that is seventy percent for even the best, when you can shoot a shot that is 55% with a 90% chance of a safe if you miss, you've got to know shich one to go for and more importantly, you;ve got to be able to see both shots.

Because this knowledge is really what differentiates most players, there's no way that a lesser player without that knowledge can judge the rating of other players.
 
I would say most B players have enough knowledge of the game to be able to competently rate someone. I'm a B player though so I have to justify my existence somehow.. LOL

DJ
 
PlynSets said:
I would say most B players have enough knowledge of the game to be able to competently rate someone. I'm a B player though so I have to justify my existence somehow.. LOL

DJ
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I think people might have misunderstood my previous post here. I'm not saying that a B player can't rate the basic ratings i.e. A,B,C,D. I'm saying that the independent ratings, for instance the difference between an A a Strong A and an A+. Those differences are so subtle that rarely can even an A player determine them. I'm saying that for instance, if you were a B player and you didn't know who Johnny A. was or who Gabe Owen was. You could walk into a pool hall with both of those players and a good short stop and there's NO way you would be able to tell who was the better player. In fact, it's quite likely that depending on how they were shooting you would think that the short stop is the better player.

However, if Efren was sitting in the stands and didn't know any of those players, it is quite likely that he would know who was the better player.
 
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