Realistically, what should promoters focus on when it comes to pro pool?

You've made a lot of good points in this thread, Shawn.

I have always agreed that the 1991 Challenge of Champions dump was a missed opportunity for pool. It placed the game and those who play it for a living in a very negative light at a time when pool had a chance to become one of the sports of interest to the betting public. The Mirage, a new hotel trying its darndest to compete with its next-door legend Caesar's Palace, was in the process of becoming a significant venue for sports of all kinds, which it believed would increase its betting handle. They were certainly committed to growing the C of C event, and the betting handle and prize fund would surely have increased over time. A possible result of this would have been other sportsbooks in Las Vegas showing some interest in making book on pool, and had it gone that way, I feel there would be more money in professional pool today.

Needless to say, once some players conspired to cheat the Mirage out of some money, even though very little money was involved, the alarm was sounded that maybe making book on pool wasn't the greatest idea. Of course, nobody can say for sure just how much damage was done, but when their first contract was up, the Mirage walked away from the Challenge of Champions, an event that remained a money maker for another twenty years. Thirty years later, there are still no Las Vegas sportsbooks of which I'm aware that take action on pool.

Still, I'll add that, in its own way, "The Color of Money", a movie that I loved, did similar damage. Yes, I don't need to be told that the film gave pool a significant temporary boost, but the fact is that it reinforced the public perception that, for elite players, pool is a dirty business in which stalling, trickery and dumping are commonplace. There was even dumping in serious tournament play, and Paul Newman was devastated to learn that Tom Cruise had dumped and scored big betting the other side.

I suspect that one day, the sportsbooks will make book on pool again, but opportunities have been lost because pool has mismanaged its image and has been perceived as a crooked sport for far too long.

In the meantime, I think we are starting to see pool projecting a slightly better image to its public and some top event producers are starting to modify how the game is being presented.

I'm looking forward to the "60 Minutes" piece on pool a few months down the road. I'm not terribly interested in whether it motivates another 1,000,000 people to try their hand at pool, but very interested in whether it begins to change the public perception of the game for the better. If it focuses on legitimate competition and is made to look like a career worthy of pursuit, that will be nice, but if it reinforces the game's gambling/hustling culture, it won't do anything important for pool.
Thanks for the kind words, Stu. I’ve always considered you a class act on this forum. I usually get a lot of pushback on my opinions. Usually the response is “the game doesn’t need you”. Unfortunately, it does. There is no influx of young players coming into the game. And you take someone like me - I have played the game for 30 years, used to work on cues, sell cues, and be quite involved. I became fed up with the general “what have you done for me lately” attitude that players seem to come with, these days. I quit leagues a few years ago, and was hitting balls at a pool room. I had to wait an excessively long time to take a shot because two entitled league players seemed to be oblivious to their surroundings. I got a dirty look, and a comment of “we’re playing a league match, buddy”. They proceed to talk some shit, and made a comment to the owner. The owner said “yeah, that guy could spot you the 6, and it would still be stealing”. Then their attitude changed. Which is sad, because they should be giving the general public more respect, instead of looking down at them. They’re the new lifeblood the game needs. We repel new people from playing with our attitudes, yet complain when the game doesn’t grow, and there’s no pro tour. There are two keys to growing a business. One is new customer development. Pool is very weak at this. The second is customer retention. I also think it’s struggling at this. I have pretty much quit all pool, and don’t work on cues anymore. That means cue companies aren’t getting my business anymore. I also don’t work on cues, which means suppliers sell less product, and will need to fill that hole. Now, guys with lathes are a dime a dozen, so I’m sure me leaving will be a drop in the well. But given the state of the game and industry, they can’t even afford to lose these drips. I loved the game, so retaining me should have been easy. But the general attitude of the majority of players has caused me to find other pastimes.
 
Assuming that getting casinos to start making book on professional pool could help professional pool grow, how would casinos go about making sure that players wouldn’t dump on them the way it was apparently done in the 1991 Challenge of Champions (and I know nothing of that event; I’m just inferring what happened from Stu’s above post). When a contest involves only two individuals and the outcome can literally be determined by where a ball rolls to within a couple of millimeters it is almost impossible to prove that someone dumped a match. What would ever give casinos enough confidence that players aren’t dumping to take the chance on them? I’ll grant that throwing games and point shaving can occur in any sport but Vegas has apparently already been burned on pool once. What would convince them to try again?
 
Assuming that getting casinos to start making book on professional pool could help professional pool grow, how would casinos go about making sure that players wouldn’t dump on them the way it was apparently done in the 1991 Challenge of Champions (and I know nothing of that event; I’m just inferring what happened from Stu’s above post). When a contest involves only two individuals and the outcome can literally be determined by where a ball rolls to within a couple of millimeters it is almost impossible to prove that someone dumped a match. What would ever give casinos enough confidence that players aren’t dumping to take the chance on them? I’ll grant that throwing games and point shaving can occur in any sport but Vegas has apparently already been burned on pool once. What would convince them to try again?

Thing is once you burn Casino or Casinos in Vegas you get on their not welcome list, and you will be allowed in no Casinos. Pool players burned SportBooks, by dumping, taking casinos for much dollars,and got caught.

Pool Players are know as dishonest persons, in Las Vegas you normally get NO SECOND CHANCES. There is no WELCOME MAT waiting to any Sport Bets on Pool.
 
Thanks for the kind words, Stu. I’ve always considered you a class act on this forum. I usually get a lot of pushback on my opinions. Usually the response is “the game doesn’t need you”. Unfortunately, it does. There is no influx of young players coming into the game. And you take someone like me - I have played the game for 30 years, used to work on cues, sell cues, and be quite involved. I became fed up with the general “what have you done for me lately” attitude that players seem to come with, these days. I quit leagues a few years ago, and was hitting balls at a pool room. I had to wait an excessively long time to take a shot because two entitled league players seemed to be oblivious to their surroundings. I got a dirty look, and a comment of “we’re playing a league match, buddy”. They proceed to talk some shit, and made a comment to the owner. The owner said “yeah, that guy could spot you the 6, and it would still be stealing”. Then their attitude changed. Which is sad, because they should be giving the general public more respect, instead of looking down at them. They’re the new lifeblood the game needs. We repel new people from playing with our attitudes, yet complain when the game doesn’t grow, and there’s no pro tour. There are two keys to growing a business. One is new customer development. Pool is very weak at this. The second is customer retention. I also think it’s struggling at this. I have pretty much quit all pool, and don’t work on cues anymore. That means cue companies aren’t getting my business anymore. I also don’t work on cues, which means suppliers sell less product, and will need to fill that hole. Now, guys with lathes are a dime a dozen, so I’m sure me leaving will be a drop in the well. But given the state of the game and industry, they can’t even afford to lose these drips. I loved the game, so retaining me should have been easy. But the general attitude of the majority of players has caused me to find other pastimes.

I travel for work and I'm fortunate to occasionally stop in pool halls (or bars with pool tables) around the country. Universally the places I go are busy with youngish people shooting pool and having fun. The challenge of course is none of these people want to watch pool on TV (or on their phones). Pool is more fun to play than watch.
 
I’d be interested to see what pool’s conversion rate is (for lack of a better term) on people that play pool and watch/follow professional pool. I bet if you took that conversion % against people who play baseball and watch the MLB or golfers who watch the PGA Tour, pool would be way behind.

I play in leagues 3+ nights a week and interact with a ton of pool players and I know very few people who watch pro pool or follow it at all. How can pool expect to grow when it can’t even attract the people who already enjoy and play the game? Liking the game is like half the battle and they still can get them to watch.

And as for turning people into pool fans who don’t even play the game, I think that’s an even tougher task. Sure, there are a bunch of great events being put on all around the world now, but how many of those events are PPV? Or require a niche cable subscription (aka DAZN)? Or maybe have a free stream on YouTube but there’s no commentary to explain the game or what’s going on? None of those things are conducive to bringing in fresh fans to the game or even those who already play.
 
I play in leagues 3+ nights a week and interact with a ton of pool players and I know very few people who watch pro pool or follow it at all. How can pool expect to grow when it can’t even attract the people who already enjoy and play the game? Liking the game is like half the battle and they still can get them to watch.


I would think if you asked you League player to name 10 Pro Pool players you would find few who could name 10 correctly.
 
I would think if you asked you League player to name 10 Pro Pool players you would find few who could name 10 correctly.

I've done leagues for decades and, yes, this knowledge has spread more than before the net. Here in town, though, we have the Cue Expo and many of the pros show up for that and we players show up to see them in spite of the lack of advertising and promotion for it to the public. That is, NO promotion.

Marketing is hard, folks. It takes a lot of resources and there are no guarantees.

Thank a pool business Person today for being in business.


Jeff Livingston
 
Well do most thing is life, is harder then doing nothing.

Failure is easy, accomplishing anything is work. People today think work is deadly disease.
 
I would love to see you name 10 pro players correctly.
I could easily, not a problem, Pool is just bush league game.

Players who are Pros struggle to live, should have taken up another sport if making money was object in life.

I get it some are happy being greater at Wal-Mart, or picking veggies for a living.😢
 
I asked a HOF pro why so much 9 & 10 ball and he said "it's whatever the promoter wants" and went on to say that more than game preference he had a preference to eat on a regular basis and would play whatever the promoter dishes up.

As far as the promoter goes, at least in this environment, the spectator is king. The promoter needs to put on a show that allows him to turn a profit be it through manufacturer sponsorship or ticket sales & ultimately, if the manufacturers doesn't feel it is a wise investment based on spectator behavior they will move on.

The hard truth is that the success of professional pool in general or any particular event is really up to the spectators and that is a truth most of the "what's wrong with pool" crowd will not face.
Pool needs spectator interaction, applauding quality play. Think Mosconi cup crowds.
 
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I think Matchroom are making a go of it and things will evolve. In a couple of years time I'm sure a few things will be different from how they are now. What exactly will change? No idea!

9 ball rules definitely need standardizing. So many leagues insist that you must call the 9. They don't have to on TV games.

I just wish when they are showing it on TV (or stream or whatever) that they'd cut down on the excessive use of the overhead camera. Yes - a quick glance sometimes (and for replays) but they seem to go to it every other shot. As a player I want to see the stance and cue delivery. That overhead shot is awful.
Have a title for each of the most popular disciplins, 8,9&10 ball, then players can attempt to unify them.
 
I see pro pool as having a bit of a dilemma between the golf model and the Pro Poker Tour.

I've worked much of my adult life in the golf industry and what's funny is that there is much more gambling on golf courses in the US than pool rooms these days, but the PGA tour, USGA et al do a great job of hiding that part of the game and presenting the family-friendly, charity-donating, First Tee loving part of the game. It works! Golf has a reputation as a gentleman's sport. The players are clean-cut and likeable. The crowds are well behaved, save for the WM Open. Golf is also extremely equipment intensive which leads to lots of sponsorship opportunities. The result is amazing production values for the big tournaments, excellent commentary, and everything else you'd expect out of well funded enterprise.

The WPT is the complete opposite. There's virtually no equipment to sponsor. The actual watching of poker is extremely boring, unless you really like watching people turn little pieces of paper over, over and over again. But, the gambling is up front, visible, and extremely compelling. There's something wonderfully exhilarating about watching people, especially characters, risk, win, and lose large sums of money.

I wonder if, since the door is basically closed on Vegas making pool into what golf is today, there isn't an opportunity to do something like the WPT. If you could capture some facsimile of the excitement of the money games around the DCC and similar, you might really have something. I could imagine a room with a number of tables, maybe even a variety of different kinds, a number of players who have bought in and now have fixed bankrolls, and a direction to make games until someone has all the money. You'd need a clock and a cut line at various times to keep the action going.

Want to make a game playing three ball one handed for the whole bag? Go for it, we'll televise the negotiation and the match. Want to play tight and just play 10-ball, rack your own, race to 11? You can do that, but the clock is ticking. It would give an opportunity to get to know the players, see people under real pressure outside of their comfort-zones, and give the pool hall hero a chance to break into the game. I don't know if it would work, but I think I'd be stoked to watch.
 
Ideas for fixing Pool can only become reality with work on fixing problems.

Pro players have most to gain, but I do not think most get the idea of working as group to institute change.
 
I see pro pool as having a bit of a dilemma between the golf model and the Pro Poker Tour.

I've worked much of my adult life in the golf industry and what's funny is that there is much more gambling on golf courses in the US than pool rooms these days, but the PGA tour, USGA et al do a great job of hiding that part of the game and presenting the family-friendly, charity-donating, First Tee loving part of the game. It works! Golf has a reputation as a gentleman's sport. The players are clean-cut and likeable. The crowds are well behaved, save for the WM Open. Golf is also extremely equipment intensive which leads to lots of sponsorship opportunities. The result is amazing production values for the big tournaments, excellent commentary, and everything else you'd expect out of well funded enterprise.

The WPT is the complete opposite. There's virtually no equipment to sponsor. The actual watching of poker is extremely boring, unless you really like watching people turn little pieces of paper over, over and over again. But, the gambling is up front, visible, and extremely compelling. There's something wonderfully exhilarating about watching people, especially characters, risk, win, and lose large sums of money.

I wonder if, since the door is basically closed on Vegas making pool into what golf is today, there isn't an opportunity to do something like the WPT. If you could capture some facsimile of the excitement of the money games around the DCC and similar, you might really have something. I could imagine a room with a number of tables, maybe even a variety of different kinds, a number of players who have bought in and now have fixed bankrolls, and a direction to make games until someone has all the money. You'd need a clock and a cut line at various times to keep the action going.

Want to make a game playing three ball one handed for the whole bag? Go for it, we'll televise the negotiation and the match. Want to play tight and just play 10-ball, rack your own, race to 11? You can do that, but the clock is ticking. It would give an opportunity to get to know the players, see people under real pressure outside of their comfort-zones, and give the pool hall hero a chance to break into the game. I don't know if it would work, but I think I'd be stoked to watch.

I think one difference between WSOP/WPT and pool is that the average joe can second guess how the poker is being played and pretend (or believe) they could do better. That's harder with pool where the average player would struggle to identify any strategy and knows he could never make many of the pro's shots.

But I totally agree that gambling is going to have to be a big part of pro pool in the future with online sportsbooks. Maybe having viewers bet along with players during a livestreamed match would be a way to replicate the railbird experience.
 
I think one difference between WSOP/WPT and pool is that the average joe can second guess how the poker is being played and pretend (or believe) they could do better. That's harder with pool where the average player would struggle to identify any strategy and knows he could never make many of the pro's shots.

But I totally agree that gambling is going to have to be a big part of pro pool in the future with online sportsbooks. Maybe having viewers bet along with players during a livestreamed match would be a way to replicate the railbird experience.
I totally agree that, that is the problem. It would be fun if you could make the game-making part of the game. I'd love to watch some B+ APA player negotiate a match with SVB; you could see someone negotiating for all the breaks, the 6 out, and an extra BIH each rack. It would be a show!
 
Grady Mathews had this suggestion. Give everyone $10,000 and let them make their own games until one player winds up with all of it. Not sustainable but once a year it would be fun to watch.
 
I totally agree that, that is the problem. It would be fun if you could make the game-making part of the game. I'd love to watch some B+ APA player negotiate a match with SVB; you could see someone negotiating for all the breaks, the 6 out, and an extra BIH each rack. It would be a show!

I think that's a great idea!
 
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