Realistically, what should promoters focus on when it comes to pro pool?

SomeDeadGuy said:
Grady Mathews had this suggestion. Give everyone $10,000 and let them make their own games until one player winds up with all of it. Not sustainable but once a year it would be fun to watch.
Click to expand...
Great minds! That's the idea, but maybe with funny money, so the loss is fixed, and the payout maybe goes 5 deep when the horn goes off. You could run it once a month if the buy in was low enough. Give the fish a chance, at least for a little while.

I think the incentives for better spectating are there. Short sets for big stakes would be the ticket. Prop shots if you could get the action. And, if you had a leaderboard like in golf that everyone could see, the incentives to give weight to get action go up as the clock winds down. With just minuets left, I could see people trying to make the cut or the money line betting on spot shots for the whole bag. It' would be exciting.
 
Last edited:
Lots of interesting comments.

Just 2 clarifications. Chinese 8 ball is the most popular billiards game. It’s also only second to Snooker in viewership. Snooker draws 60 million viewers on the Chinese sport channel…Chinese 8 ball 40 million.

And gambling. Sports or otherwise. Macau dwarfs anywhere else in the world. It is the most internationally visited city in the world…gambling revenues are 8 times those of Las Vegas and a good chunk of it is sports gambling. Billiards will never draw the billions bet on English Premier League Football but even a fraction of it, tens of millions, is bet on Snooker. 8 ball or 9 may get into the door via Matchroom.
 
Geosnookery said:
Lots of interesting comments.

Just 2 clarifications. Chinese 8 ball is the most popular billiards game. It’s also only second to Snooker in viewership. Snooker draws 60 million viewers on the Chinese sport channel…Chinese 8 ball 40 million.

And gambling. Sports or otherwise. Macau dwarfs anywhere else in the world. It is the most internationally visited city in the world…gambling revenues are 8 times those of Las Vegas and a good chunk of it is sports gambling. Billiards will never draw the billions bet on English Premier League Football but even a fraction of it, tens of millions, is bet on Snooker. 8 ball or 9 may get into the door via Matchroom.
Click to expand...
Well said and thanks for sharing your insights. I suspect, but don't know for sure, that gambling figures down the road somewhere. After all, it was Barry Hearn that vitalized snooker to make it worthy of action, and Betfred is a huge sponsor of snooker, so the tie between snooker and gambling is undeniable.

Speaking as somebody who has bet on snooker in English bookie shops (never for much, mind you), it's fun to bet on snooker. I recall betting at odds of 11:1 that a match would finish with the score of 10-3, specifying who would win. Yes, I only won 55 British pounds, but I was on top of the world.

If pool, as a pro sport, grows, as I believe it will with Matchroom steering the ship, pool may generate considerable interest with the bookmakers of Europe and Asia, which might help grow the sport whether or not it generates similar interest with the US bookmakers.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Thanks for the kind words, Stu. I’ve always considered you a class act on this forum. I usually get a lot of pushback on my opinions. Usually the response is “the game doesn’t need you”. Unfortunately, it does. There is no influx of young players coming into the game. And you take someone like me - I have played the game for 30 years, used to work on cues, sell cues, and be quite involved. I became fed up with the general “what have you done for me lately” attitude that players seem to come with, these days. I quit leagues a few years ago, and was hitting balls at a pool room. I had to wait an excessively long time to take a shot because two entitled league players seemed to be oblivious to their surroundings. I got a dirty look, and a comment of “we’re playing a league match, buddy”. They proceed to talk some shit, and made a comment to the owner. The owner said “yeah, that guy could spot you the 6, and it would still be stealing”. Then their attitude changed. Which is sad, because they should be giving the general public more respect, instead of looking down at them. They’re the new lifeblood the game needs. We repel new people from playing with our attitudes, yet complain when the game doesn’t grow, and there’s no pro tour. There are two keys to growing a business. One is new customer development. Pool is very weak at this. The second is customer retention. I also think it’s struggling at this. I have pretty much quit all pool, and don’t work on cues anymore. That means cue companies aren’t getting my business anymore. I also don’t work on cues, which means suppliers sell less product, and will need to fill that hole. Now, guys with lathes are a dime a dozen, so I’m sure me leaving will be a drop in the well. But given the state of the game and industry, they can’t even afford to lose these drips. I loved the game, so retaining me should have been easy. But the general attitude of the majority of players has caused me to find other pastimes.
Click to expand...
Your right and I am sorry to hear the past-tence from you... Our sport needs all... thank you Guy
 
The problem as I see it is::

a) there is so little money in pro pool that dumping enables a player to eat better
....which directly leads to no-betting because the bookies can't trust the game
b) rather than making the game more enjoyable to watch
....we sit around discussing how to get more money into the game
....in order to hope that (a) happens less often.

This is an entirely backwards way of getting the pair of problems solved (money and TV/streaming time)
 
  • Like
Reactions: sjm
Non numbered traditional colored balls. We can't see the numbers on the screen anyway, why not make them look good? Perfect spheres are better to see on a screen, example snooker.
 
I think that dumping or match fixing occurs is not as much of an issue as it is that there is no accountability for it. Or at worst I suppose they get banned from a particular tournament.

In snooker, match fixing occurs periodically and it results in bans after a investigation is concluded. Further, players are reprimanded for bad conduct. Liang Wenbo is sure to get handed a ban for assaulting his partner. Betting sites and sponsors continue to associate with the game because they know the WST penalizes bad actors.

However until we have a governing body in pool with teeth, players can dump in the first tournament and bookies have no guarantees that those same players won’t be back in tournament two. Meanwhile, player 1 can assault player 2 but sponsors will see player 1 continuing to play in subsequent events with no penalty.

Bad actors in sport are a fact of life. What is important is ensuring there is accountability to minimize the impact.
 
Unification. Unite the players, get a tour, crown a champion(s) in the end. Have a WORLD CHAMPION that means something as the payoff.

Just my opinion but it's easier to sell merchandise/name/image/likeness for a toured champion. Ask the NFL, NBA or even the NCAA.
 
Ghost of OBC said:
I see pro pool as having a bit of a dilemma between the golf model and the Pro Poker Tour.

I've worked much of my adult life in the golf industry and what's funny is that there is much more gambling on golf courses in the US than pool rooms these days, but the PGA tour, USGA et al do a great job of hiding that part of the game and presenting the family-friendly, charity-donating, First Tee loving part of the game. It works! Golf has a reputation as a gentleman's sport. The players are clean-cut and likeable. The crowds are well behaved, save for the WM Open. Golf is also extremely equipment intensive which leads to lots of sponsorship opportunities. The result is amazing production values for the big tournaments, excellent commentary, and everything else you'd expect out of well funded enterprise.

The WPT is the complete opposite. There's virtually no equipment to sponsor. The actual watching of poker is extremely boring, unless you really like watching people turn little pieces of paper over, over and over again. But, the gambling is up front, visible, and extremely compelling. There's something wonderfully exhilarating about watching people, especially characters, risk, win, and lose large sums of money.

I wonder if, since the door is basically closed on Vegas making pool into what golf is today, there isn't an opportunity to do something like the WPT. If you could capture some facsimile of the excitement of the money games around the DCC and similar, you might really have something. I could imagine a room with a number of tables, maybe even a variety of different kinds, a number of players who have bought in and now have fixed bankrolls, and a direction to make games until someone has all the money. You'd need a clock and a cut line at various times to keep the action going.

Want to make a game playing three ball one handed for the whole bag? Go for it, we'll televise the negotiation and the match. Want to play tight and just play 10-ball, rack your own, race to 11? You can do that, but the clock is ticking. It would give an opportunity to get to know the players, see people under real pressure outside of their comfort-zones, and give the pool hall hero a chance to break into the game. I don't know if it would work, but I think I'd be stoked to watch.
Click to expand...

I'm in the process of developing a system for running tournaments where participants get a fixed bankroll and can then go make games to move up or down on the leaderboard. It has a "rake" of sorts built in: the administrator can increase the minimum bet, remove points from players who dodge action, and establish a cut line, as in golf tournament, to bring the tournament to a conclusion.

It should be ready for testing in the next 8 weeks or so. If there is anyone with a room, or who is currently running tournaments who would like to give it a test drive, I'd be happy to make the system available and even kick in some swag for players that are willing to share feedback.

I'm in the DC area, so somewhere local would be idea, but even further afield would be great.
 
sjm said:
Making the game consistent and recognizable to the wider audience is the key to attracting and keeping them. The hardcore viewer will watch no matter what the details are.

It is a fiction that what the players want and what the fans want are the same thing. The players are always asking for rules changes, equipment changes, prize payout changes, and other things that make almost no difference to the casual fan, who simply wants consistency and continuity so that the game remains recognizable to them. Every time player demands are met by event producers, the casual fan is, ever so slightly, disenfranchised because the pros are no longer playing a game those fans know.

Snooker has it right. Even the most casual of fans knows 99% of the rules in snooker and the game is incredibly simple to follow. The game looks about the same as it did 50 years ago. On the other hand, for years now, it seems that every pool tourney has equipment and rules that are different from the event before it, and it's no longer the game that the casual fans play in the bars or the pool halls but something different.

Matchroom is the first to truly understand how important it is to give the fans the game they know, and they are making great strides in standardizing their pool offering. That said, however, the players are already talking unionizing and have made it clear that they'll push hard for some rule and format changes. This will back Matchroom into a corner, for they cannot relent without modifying their product in a way that makes it less recognizable to casual fans. A return to the times when the game was tweaked time and time again, in my view, must be avoided.

Predator, conversely, has overhauled the game, switching from nine ball to ten ball, playing call shot rules, disallowing golden breaks, giving a player a pass/play option whenever opponent pockets a ball they didn't call, and a spot shot shootout to break ties. They're taking a completely new approach to things, and maybe time will prove them right that this will catch on with casual fans. Fans are still getting used to their pro pool product, but that's OK, as long as that product remains consistent. We shall see.

I think both Matchroom and Predator are focusing more on the entertainment value of their pro pool offering for the fans than the needs of the pros, and that's encouraging for our sport.

What the pros need is the opportunity to make a living, and they've never had it better than they have it now. If they are vigilant in demanding changes to the pro pool offerings of the event producers, they'll reduce the likelihood that casual fans will tune in and stay interested over time. If they are wise, they'll let the event producers manage the pro pool product as they see fit.
Click to expand...
Yes Stu good logic, a must. Aren't we USA people very different from UK people in our sports, I wonder if many of their audience has a snooker table at home. This comes to mind to consider... Thank you Guy
 
  • Like
Reactions: sjm
OverTheNut said:
I think Matchroom are making a go of it and things will evolve. In a couple of years time I'm sure a few things will be different from how they are now. What exactly will change? No idea!

9 ball rules definitely need standardizing. So many leagues insist that you must call the 9. They don't have to on TV games.

I just wish when they are showing it on TV (or stream or whatever) that they'd cut down on the excessive use of the overhead camera. Yes - a quick glance sometimes (and for replays) but they seem to go to it every other shot. As a player I want to see the stance and cue delivery. That overhead shot is awful.
Click to expand...
I see in Chinese , YOUKU, Televised great camera action to let the viewers get involved in the games, I think this is needed and it helps my viewing... Guy
 
ChrisinNC said:
8-ball is by far the most popular game in the world among the masses, but the rules for the pros would somehow have to be tweaked to make it more like bar table rules, which is like 99% of how all pool / 8-ball is played among recreational players.

No safeties allowed and ball-in-hand on all missed shots would keep the game going at a very fast pace, at the cost of eliminating a lot of the skill and strategy involved, so I’m guessing the pro players would not like it. I would guess alternating breaks would need to be utilized to keep it relatively fair / competitive.

There would be enough upsets to make it interesting, but the best players would adjust their games and their strategy accordingly. Assuming the match races were still relatively long, the highest skilled players would still likely finished towards the top.
Click to expand...
Safeties break the boarding of the 8 Ball games, Must have Safeties for sure if we are to watch 15+ games wins...
 
Fatboy said:
I think a good foundation would to get the colors of the balls settled once and for all.

Build from that point
Click to expand...
The pink four does seem to help for viewing, Got to have the orange five, There are so many games that the only way to tell the purple colored ball from the eight ball is by waiting for CB placement... Guy
 
Guy Manges said:
The pink four does seem to help for viewing, Got to have the orange five, There are so many games that the only way to tell the purple colored ball from the eight ball is by waiting for CB placement... Guy
Click to expand...
I got no issue with the 4. The problem is the purple 5.

If they would make the 5 orange. I honestly don’t care what they do for contrast on the 4. The confusion is the balls are out of sequence with a purple 5.
 
What types of players do promoters realistically expect to get?

It is still unclear with all the pool videos and events. Yes pool does have its young pool pros but in terms of events, pool is for a working/adult crowd.

Pool thrives on the hospitality industry, its in bars and competitions are at casinos. If you can do what foodnetwork does for home appliances and groceries then you might gain interest from outside sponsors.

Finding good people to hire is what schools provide. Are jobs supporting the billiard industry in demand?
 
Fatboy said:
I got no issue with the 4. The problem is the purple 5.

If they would make the 5 orange. I honestly don’t care what they do for contrast on the 4. The confusion is the balls are out of sequence with a purple 5.
Click to expand...
Agreed, except that they could also make the four purple again and I don't care what they do with the five. Solves the same problem either way.

What is better about making the four ball purple again and who cares about the five is that then they probably also have to make the five ball orange again anyway since they are out of unique colors to use (they could move the pink over to the five but I highly doubt they would do that), so it would be an even better result all the way around since both get moved back to their traditional colors.

But like I've been saying all along and you mention above as well, the biggest problem for sure is using a traditional color on the wrong numbered ball. Most would prefer all the original colors but they could probably live with traditional ball colors being replaced by a new color, but they just can't live with (and there is zero logic for) a traditional color being moved to a different ball number so that it is now out of order.
 
We all have been in many places where they say that is how the pros play . Call pocket does not mean if it touches the rail going in it dont count or it touched another ball going in it dont count. Some think you need to call every little thing the ball does before it goes in. League play all has different rules. Talking about the different rules during a match why they play that way. We will say like ball in hand or behind the head string. If I scratch on a ball and have to put the cue ball behind the head string and all my balls are behind the head string I am the one getting penalized for your scratch. Who understands that if you are rated a 2 ? not many. Explain why there is the ball and hand rule. If the pros played by the same rules all over the world and they were explained why the rules are that way and compare other rules during a match maybe in the next 100 years of pool players may catch on.
 
Now I may be radical and I have not read the whole thread but every time I watch a pool match I wonder why the commentor does not have a etch a sketch and show that the shooter is going to do with the object ball and where he is going to place the cue ball. Like Don Madden does in Football.

I have only seen this a couple times but if they did this more often (like every shot), it would engage the less experienced and less accomplished players and educate them on how the pro's position the cue for the remaining shots.

This could be hilarious with a good commentator like Strickland, especially if any reigns were removed and let him roll with the game.

They reference it frequently in the comments but rarely demonstrate it on the screen. Usually, I can predict the shot but sometimes it takes me longer to figure it out before they shoot it but I am sure it is well within Mr Stricklands Capabilities.

If they have rolled this feature out but I have only been watching the matches without it, I would appreciate it if you guys could direct me to a match with the Don Madden Shot Sketch on the screen.

Regards,
Crankster
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top