Regarding construction and playability.

[manwon]

How about SCHMELKE?...JER

Well Jer, Schmelke can certainly copy the Titlist Fullsplice. In fact in late 1968 / early 1969 they made some of the last Brunswick cues made in the USA, until the 1990's when Joss and others began producing cues with the Brunswick Lable on them.

Schmelke made the last Titlist blanks made in this country with the Brunswick name on them for about a year. These cues were called Brunswick Titlist personal cues and they had the Schmelke large metal joint.

Here is a picture a Schmelke Titlist cue built for Brunswick.

 

[manwon]

Brunswick used a tablesaw for the prong, and the butt. I know this much because I have disassembled them & can clearly see circular saw marks. Besides that, not much difference in them & any full splice.

I totally agree they did use a table saw, I have also disassemble a couple of broken Titlist cues. The main difference between what is being made today, and by Brunswick is the sharpness of the points both forward and backward whether veneered or not.

Today, full-splice cues that I have seen have flat bottomed points, by all cue makers, whether they are short spliced or full-spliced. Now I have Burton Spain's books on point blank construction. Burton believed that points should make a perfect V at the bottom, and he states this in the books writing and in the diagrams.

While this may not be a big deal to some, the esthetic's of a Full-spliced cue without wrap made today, can not compare to the sharp clean look of a good Titlist splice.

Just my thoughts.

 

[manwon]

The titlist consisted of a hardwood handle and a maple forearm spliced together. That is the definition of a full splice. No A joint. Just wood and glue. This is the exact same way that hercek, tascarella, davis, prather, mark bear, blackcreek, tucker, arnot, whisler, cuemaster, predator, and im sure a few others make their full splice cues. Of course nobody is using the old outdated equipment used by brunswick. I'm sure everybodys equipment and glues are a little different but they are all making FULL SPLICED cues in the same tradition as the titlist.

Claiming these cuemakers do not make FULL SPLICED cues is insulting to their work. I'm sure they have all ripped apart a few titlist cues and know exactly how they are constructed and if anything improved upon the original design.

Here is an excerpt from Mark Bear's website (www.bearcues.com):

"Over the years Mark has constantly improved upon his designs and construction techniques with the latest being what he calls the "Modern Day Full Splice". This is based on the tried and true Brunswick TITLIST design."

From the interview portion of Hercek's website (www.hercek.com):

"..in 1991 Burton Spain started working on a full spliced blank, the kind used in the TITLIST. With a full spliced blank, the handle and prongs are made from the same piece of wood and finger spliced into the maple nose section of the cue."

The titlist consisted of a hardwood handle and a maple forearm spliced together. That is the definition of a full splice. No A joint. Just wood and glue. This is the exact same way that hercek, tascarella, davis, prather, mark bear, blackcreek, tucker, arnot, whisler, cuemaster, predator, and im sure a few others make their full splice cues. Of course nobody is using the old outdated equipment used by brunswick. I'm sure everybodys equipment and glues are a little different but they are all making FULL SPLICED cues in the same tradition as the titlist.

I am afraid there is a great deal more to a Titlist cue and the cues being made today. Like I said in my other post to Name the equipment used, your response was that nobody is using the out dated equipment from back then, this clearly shows you do not have a clear idea how these cues are made. Back then they used a table saw, do cue builders still use table saws today? Oh, I will answer that for you Yes they do. The way the Titlist was made is not the exact way that cues maker are building full splice cues today.

Many cue makers today are using a mill and V-cut groves in the cue forearm where the veneers and points are inlay-ed not spliced. Out of all the makers you have named, only two use a full Spiced technique on all of their cues and that Joel Hercek, and Mr. Davis. Now even their Full splice is not the same technique as the technique that Brunswick used for the Titlist cues. Both of these great cue makers spliced the forearms they build to the under wrap or handle, which is turn was in many cases spliced to the cues butt material. This technique is Burton Spain's Full Splice technique, and Burton and Richard Helmstetter were very good friends. Now since Adam / Helmstetter cues made in the late 1960's through the Mid 1970's used this same technique they may have worked on the design together.

Here are some photo's to help you understand what you are talking about.

Below are some Blanks made by Mr. Davis and this is the same Technique that Mr. Hercek uses and this is the splice that was developed by Burton Spain.



Now the following Spliced Blanks were made by Helmstetter for Adam cues, do you notice the similarities.





Next is a Palmer Blank from the 1960's that also used this technique.



So please do a little research, I have been doing it for around 20 years. You will be amazed at what information is out if you look for or even ask the right people. Until then it is better to listen than to speak about thing that you have heard or think you know.

No disrespect, and I hope this information helps.

 

[JoeyInCali]

What would that be called?
Double spliced?

 

[manwon]

What would that be called?
Double spliced?

Joey, this how Joel Hercek builds his Full Spliced Cues. This Technique was developed by Burton Spain, that is where Mr. Davis learned it.

I would just call it an alternative Full Splice. On a Adam cue I disasembled that used this splice there was an Aluminum Conection screw that went all the way through the center of the under wrap. Thenthrough the splice and into the forearm, I suspect that Aluminum screw was installed to strengthen the splice at the under wrap but whatever reason it was done it seemed like allot of work.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey, this how Joel Hercek builds his Full Spliced Cues. This Technique was developed by Burton Spain, that is where Mr. Davis learned it.

I would just call it an alternative Full Splice. On a Adam cue I disasembled that used this splice there was an Aluminum Conection screw that went all the way through the center of the under wrap. Thenthrough the splice and into the forearm, I suspect that Aluminum screw was installed to strengthen the splice at the under wrap but whatever reason it was done it seemed like allot of work.

That's messed up.
The Schmelke blanks are true one-piece prong/handle.


Anyway, it can be argued full-splice is overrated.
I like wood threads compressing/joining the forearm and the handle with virtually indestructible epoxy.

 

[manwon]

Another cue maker that makes Full spliced cue and has been doing so since the 1970's is Paul Huebler. Paul even makes his own Sneaky Pete Blanks, I have been to shop in Linn, Mo many times over the years, because I grew up near there.

 

[spliced]

Back then they used a table saw, do cue builders still use table saws today? Oh, I will answer that for you Yes they do. The way the Titlist was made is not the exact way that cues maker are building full splice cues today.

How do you know? Many have publicly admitted they used the Titlist as a basis for their own work. You say they DO use the same equipment. Have you ever cut up a Hercek, Tascarella full splice, Bear cue, or any of the others I named? Have you personally asked them how their full splices are constructed? If not then you have no arguement as to how their cues are constructed. They could be identical to a titlist for all you know.

Brunswick used a tablesaw for the prong, and the butt. I know this much because I have disassembled them & can clearly see circular saw marks. Besides that, not much difference in them & any full splice.

Thank you.

 

[qbilder]

It does not matter what tools are used to execute the splice, so long as it is the same result. Brunswick, after looking at hundreds of cues, I have concluded used to build them differently when Rambow was in charge. Rambow era splices show signs of the back part of the blank being cut to a sharp point using a hand saw similar to a jeweler saw. Beyond the Rambow era is when the back part of points were no longer sharp, due to the extra steps not being taken. I'm assuming any cuemaker who wanted to go that extra mile could do so with no problem. But as soon as he begins the hand work he begins losing precision & accuracy.

Most full spliced blanks today are intended for use in cues that get a wrap. A full spliced blank with an extra spliced in maple handle is still a full splice by any definition, just has an alternative handle. Bear makes full splices with sharp tipped points each end. These are for his wrapless cues. For wrapped cues i'd imagine he doesn't do the extra work. Making the points sharp at the bottom is merely for appearances & is a waste of time if the cue is going to be wrapped & those points covered. It's not that anybody can't do it, they just don't have a reason to.

On a side note, many builders nowadays use bandsaws instead of tablesaws. Schmelke does it with round stock, not square. I have a full splice jig I bought that used to belong to an old house cue manufacturer & it is a bandsaw jig. The prong jig was actually a homemade horizontal shaper machine that utilized a 90 degree v-groove bit, and the prong wood was mounted into a slide that was actuated in linear motion into the blade by a pneumatic cylinder. The two peices were glued together & ran through a dowelling machine that had a pneumatic controlled constrictor that gave the exact same taper over & over. Full splice cues were made by the thousands with a high degree of accuracy & repeatability, with less than $10,000 of equipment.

 

[manwon]

How do you know? Many have publicly admitted they used the Titlist as a basis for their own work. You say they DO use the same equipment. Have you ever cut up a Hercek, Tascarella full splice, Bear cue, or any of the others I named? Have you personally asked them how their full splices are constructed? If not then you have no arguement as to how their cues are constructed. They could be identical to a titlist for all you know.



Thank you.

Like I said, please do some research your comment clearly show that you do not have a clear understanding of this subject. Now because you use the name Fullsplicefiend, it is clear that you love Fullspliced cues, but it isn't proof that you understand what is used or how they are made.

Have a great day!

 

[manwon]

It does not matter what tools are used to execute the splice, so long as it is the same result. Brunswick, after looking at hundreds of cues, I have concluded used to build them differently when Rambow was in charge. Rambow era splices show signs of the back part of the blank being cut to a sharp point using a hand saw similar to a jeweler saw. Beyond the Rambow era is when the back part of points were no longer sharp, due to the extra steps not being taken. I'm assuming any cuemaker who wanted to go that extra mile could do so with no problem. But as soon as he begins the hand work he begins losing precision & accuracy.

Most full spliced blanks today are intended for use in cues that get a wrap. A full spliced blank with an extra spliced in maple handle is still a full splice by any definition, just has an alternative handle. Bear makes full splices with sharp tipped points each end. These are for his wrapless cues. For wrapped cues i'd imagine he doesn't do the extra work. Making the points sharp at the bottom is merely for appearances & is a waste of time if the cue is going to be wrapped & those points covered. It's not that anybody can't do it, they just don't have a reason to.

On a side note, many builders nowadays use bandsaws instead of tablesaws. Schmelke does it with round stock, not square. I have a full splice jig I bought that used to belong to an old house cue manufacturer & it is a bandsaw jig. The prong jig was actually a homemade horizontal shaper machine that utilized a 90 degree v-groove bit, and the prong wood was mounted into a slide that was actuated in linear motion into the blade by a pneumatic cylinder. The two peices were glued together & ran through a dowelling machine that had a pneumatic controlled constrictor that gave the exact same taper over & over. Full splice cues were made by the thousands with a high degree of accuracy & repeatability, with less than $10,000 of equipment.

Full splice cues were made by the thousands with a high degree of accuracy & repeatability, with less than $10,000 of equipment.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with your comments, in fact I am tooling up to do just that using a table saw and a Ban saw for cutting my points. To date I have not been happy with the results, but my Jigs are almost perfected.

Thanks for your input!!!!!!

 

[JoeyInCali]

It does not matter what tools are used to execute the splice, so long as it is the same result.
I'm willing to bet that the method will be cnc'd sooner or later.
IF they start with perpectly planed squares, and they cut them in several stages, they should be dead-nuts.

 

[manwon]

It does not matter what tools are used to execute the splice, so long as it is the same result.
I'm willing to bet that the method will be cnc'd sooner or later.
IF they start with perpectly planed squares, and they cut them in several stages, they should be dead-nuts.

I totally agree Joey, they would be Dead Nuts, and in the long run they would also be worth about as much as Dead Nuts. While CNC'd equipment can certainly be an asset to any cue maker. I also think that the current Market shows that cue makers who are using the Traditional methods of construction are still the most sought after. When I spoke to Bill Schick the other day about the Paradise cue I posted on this site, CNC machinery entered our conversion. Bill stated very plainly that he had considered buying some of this equipment himself sometime ago. However, he was told in no uncertain terms by his customers that they did not want cues built using this technology. So to this day he builds his cues traditionally, without the aid of this equipment.

Have a good day Joey!!!

 

[JoeyInCali]

I also think that the current Market shows that cue makers who are using the Traditional methods of construction are still the most sought after.
You mean V-points as opposed to cnc'd inlayed points?
I think Schick, Bender, SW, DPK, Tascarella, Hercek and Barry S. might be the most prominent non cnc'rs today.
I believe Searing, Wayne, Lambros, Gina, Tad, Stroud and Black all use cnc.

I really don't know if a cnc fullsplice will have less value.

 

[manwon]

I also think that the current Market shows that cue makers who are using the Traditional methods of construction are still the most sought after.
You mean V-points as opposed to cnc'd inlayed points?
I think Schick, Bender, SW, DPK, Tascarella, Hercek and Barry S. might be the most prominent non cnc'rs today.
I believe Searing, Wayne, Lambros, Gina, Tad, Stroud and Black all use cnc.

I really don't know if a cnc fullsplice will have less value.

I do not either, however, while I think the quality and precision will be better with CNC, I still think over all hand made craftsmanship will still in the end command the bigger bucks.

Oh and by the way, you forgot Ron Haley, Ron will not use CNC either, and his work is certainly completed to perfection.

Have a good day

 

[qbilder]

I don't think a CNC full splice will have less value. In fact, it's likely not far from happening if not already here. I have heard a CNC v-groove points, being cut just like a tablesaw but on a 4-axis CNC mill instead. If someone can do this, the next step would be pretty easy I think. Who would ever know the difference?

The Viking cue with the funky twisted splice is done by CNC, and is full splice. It's round points but still full splice, with a twist.

 

[nick_s]

I do not either, however, while I think the quality and precision will be better with CNC, I still think over all hand made craftsmanship will still in the end command the bigger bucks.

Oh and by the way, you forgot Ron Haley, Ron will not use CNC either, and his work is certainly completed to perfection.

Have a good day

I have to agree with this. There are so many "artistic" industries that are going to machines to help them perfect their works, but it will never, in my eyes, beat hand crafted products. When you take the actual process of constructing and building the cues by hand and put it in the hands of a computer you, in my eyes, make things too rigid. It also turns into an automated process. Part of the amazing thing about owning a Custom Cue is the fact that it is a one of a kind cue. When you put a CNC machine in the mix, the cue built today with this program is no different than the cue built tomorrow with the same program. This fact alone may lower the value of the cue, hell it may not, some people may enjoy being a "part of the flock".

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Olive]

Cues and suits...

A 3-piece suit can take qualified craftsmen close to 50 hours to complete, at the cost of some 1500 sterling (ca. $3000). The tailors are religious about hand sewing every visible detail and that is what the customers expect.
The strongest construction seams are finished by machine. The fine detailing however is hand finished. Often a trade which takes 10 years to apprentice before a young tailor is allowed anywhere near a customer,
this trade utilizes artisanal techniques which have been perfected throughout centuries.

The Italian versus English cut argument aside, a Savile Row suit is probably the best suit money can buy. With proper care, it will last you over 10 years worn 3 days a week.
The materials are timeless and cut in a way to allow quick adjustment to the changes in your body.

So what is being bought here? Essentially one is buying into the experience and the expertise of the craftsman. If i bought a SR suit i would want people in the know to recognize
it and therefore recognize me for a gentleman who knows and manifests quality.

I would look at cue making with same logic. If a machine produces a more accurate fitting splice that allows for stronger construction then of course that should be utilized.
Here, the cue makers expertise comes into play with the selection of wood, detail and finish. We are talking about function here.

Moving on to decoration however, there is a completely different story. If i was in the market for a hand crafted custom cue,
I would definitely prefer something that conveyed the makers taste, skill and years of hard work he has put into his craft and would want that to show in the final product.
For me personally I find that computer cut inlays do not exhibit that as well as hand cut ones would - kind of hurts the integrity of the final product. I for one would much rather do without the plastic ivory scraps. I often hear: If you can't tell the difference, then who cares!".
Well if it is my cue then i can tell the difference. What you attach to yourself says a lot about who you are.

only my 2c,

Oliver

 

[manwon]

I don't think a CNC full splice will have less value. In fact, it's likely not far from happening if not already here. I have heard a CNC v-groove points, being cut just like a tablesaw but on a 4-axis CNC mill instead. If someone can do this, the next step would be pretty easy I think. Who would ever know the difference?

The Viking cue with the funky twisted splice is done by CNC, and is full splice. It's round points but still full splice, with a twist.

The only problem I see long with CNC technology is the fact while it can be used to add to a Master Craftsman's perfection, it is also one of the reason's that the Market is being flooded today. When this technology first became available no one thought that it would really have much of an effect on the market concerning Custom Cue. Enter the Chinese, when Chinese imports first started entering the USA in the late 1960's American Cue Makers were not threaten in any way by the Competition. The quality of the products was very poor, and for the most part the cues imported were nothing more than novelties. They featured cues made from woods that were very cheap, the joints the ferrules and tips were also of the lowest quality. Enter CNC technology, and the Chinese jump on these new techniques and start production of higher quality products.

Enter Bill Stroud (Joss West Custom Cues), Bill is contracted to go to China and teach them how to set up new factories using this technology. He teaches them how to process woods, How to build cues in general, and Bill shows them designs that will enhance sales in the USA. Thus the invasion starts, the first higher quality lines were the Players and Lucasi cues that are sold by Cue and Case sales. Now in this country more cues are imported than are built by American Production Cues factories. Everyone has jump on the Bus, and there are more lines of these import cues than I can keep up with.

Now with this said, in my opinion Custom hand built cues are the only major market that have not been effected by all the production of these products mass produced with the aid of CNC technology. Like you said, and I believe you are right that some day very few will know if a cue is completely constructed using CNC technology, because perfection of the product will certainly increase use this technology.

However, quality hand made products will always have distinguishing features that make them different, and the number produced is certainly a factor, because of the time it takes to make them. In the long term how much this effects the market remains to seen. But, custom cues that are built using the new technology will certainly have competition from the Chinese, and I suspect they are going to be hard to beat long term.

Oh and by the way, the threat of their domenation of the cue market will never effect hand made construction.

Just my thought's

 

[JoeyInCali]

Enter Bill Stroud (Joss West Custom Cues), Bill is contracted to go to China and teach them how to set up new factories using this technology. He teaches them how to process woods, How to build cues in general, and Bill shows them designs that will enhance sales in the USA. Thus the invasion starts, the first higher quality lines were the Players and Lucasi cues that are sold by Cue and Case sales. Now in this country more cues are imported than are built by American Production Cues factories. Everyone has jump on the Bus, and there are more lines of these import cues than I can keep up with.
Thankfully, there is still that small market of good people who support non-factory cues.