Reverse Swipe - Squirt / Throw Related

[Colin Colenso]

I made an interesting observation, as diagrammed below.

Using Backhand English (BHE) with a 14" bridge length with CB and OB straight on, just 4" apart.

As I expected, playing with soft right english the OB threw considerably to the left, even though the 14" bridge length would have squirted the CB left of center slightly. In fact, even with a 30" bridge length, with the balls so close together the squirt is not enough to make the OB travel straight.

When the shot is played hard, as we'd suspect, throw is reduced significantly and also I believe the CB squirt is a little greater and the OB follows the blue line path.

Then I tried cueing coming to the contact point from outside the line (as shown {exaggerated} in red). The is the reverse of standard swipe, or tuck in this case. Hence I've termed it Reverse Swipe. Some might say I am using 'roll' on the shot and that would make sense too, though I'm using roll to put on right english instead of left english.

Now you may think this is a pretty unnatural stroke, but actually it feels quite natural when executed for me. In fact, I believe I have used this shot subconsciously in the past to make shots go, or to push the CB where I wanted it to go.

This Reverse Swipe significantly increases the effective squirt deflection angle, so much so that even at 4" seperation I could make the OB travel to the right of the initial target line.

I tested this by playing the same shot with 2 feet seperation and foud I could even miss the pocket to the right, so squirt is definitely the culprit.

This provides a warning for users of BHE systems that they need to be careful in executing a consistant and accurate cue action. Swiping and Reverse Swiping can change the squirt angle considerably.

It also provide as opportunity, or an extra option which can be used in 2 possible ways that I can think of at this point:

1. When bridge length is restricted such as when cueing from the rail, Reverse Swipe can be used so that original alignment will still provide a predictable result, rather than having to aim thick with OE or thin with IE when this same situation occurs.

2. A player can adapt a system of squirt = SIT cancellation system using shorter bridge lengths by varying the cue path.

 

[jjinfla]

Sounds like the cue tip is moving right to left at contact with CB and you are actually putting clockwise spin on the cueball even though you are hitting right of center. Might want to video tape your stroke.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Sounds like the cue tip is moving right to left at contact with CB and you are actually putting clockwise spin on the cueball even though you are hitting right of center. Might want to video tape your stroke.

Yes, it's a slightly right to left movement.

The diagram below gives a good example of a shot where this works very well, and explains the way the cue moves.

On this shot, the CB is about 6 inches from the rail, so we cannot use a 12-14" bridge as the shot would require for standard BHE adjustment for straight cueing. You may be able to do it with a long fingertip on edge rail bridge, but this bridge is unstable and hard to align with I find. Also can result in more swerve.

So, with a rail bridge, fingers over the cue at about 6-7" the black line indicates the initial center ball alignment for a standard pot.

The yellow line indicates the line of the cue after the backhand pivot with cue near the CB.

The red line indicates where my cue is pointing at the back of the backswing. I then stroke the cue from this point to the CB contact point. The line is slightly right to left compared to the CB direction of travel.

I just tried this shot several times. A shot I think many players including myself don't like. Each shot went straight in the middle and the side did its job for position as shown.

A lot of shots like this come up, where CB is close to the rail. It can be a great way to adjust for english I feel. Reverse Swipe...take it to the bank!

 

[Colin Colenso]

Sounds like the cue tip is moving right to left at contact with CB and you are actually putting clockwise spin on the cueball even though you are hitting right of center. Might want to video tape your stroke.

I didn't read this properly before. No, the spin is still anti-clockwise (viewing from above) as is normal for right side english.

The english will be slightly less that what you get from standard swiping, but on most shots like these, we are not looking for extreme english, just a decent amount will give the CB shape we need.

btw: I just played a couple of dozen shots using this for various shots around the table. It allows me to shorten the bridge length to my prefered distance of around 10 inches, where I feel more comfortable aligning and can strike the CB more accurately. The accuracy of making semi-tough shots with side was very good. I think this reverse swipe shot is my new favorite ...for this week anyway

 

[Colin Colenso]

Bump... anyone tried this?

 

[Flex]

Just got back after Christmas celebrations, and will try it out today. I've no doubt it works.

Flex

 

[pete lafond]

Bump... anyone tried this?

Commonly used on the following shot.

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%^o1[3%eC1a1
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The above shot can be made more consistently by "Swiping the CB". This is a shot that relies heavily on feel and skill, experience. In other words just knowing how to get the CB in position to make the shot. This shot also changes from table to table, so feel of the table is very important, again nothing beats experience here. These shots are generally introduced by the player as they become skilled over time. Try this shot at various lengths. Ideally this shot should be make-able at least 9 out of 10 times. Anything experience less than this, the player should consider another alternative.

Another method of achieving the same shot you illustrated in your post is by slightly raising the back hand (using high right English) and driving the CB through the shot. The problem with shooting this shot is that the further the distance the CB is to the OB the much more difficult making the shot becomes though an excellent shot to add to a players skill set.

In all cases, how these shots are played depends on the feel of the table which is achieved over time and with lots of experience. Expect greater differences in results at slower speeds.

 

[jsp]

I tested this by playing the same shot with 2 feet seperation and foud I could even miss the pocket to the right, so squirt is definitely the culprit.

From your diagram, it looks like the cue is coming in at a different angle than the conventional swiping angle. If that were the case, then I don't think squirt is really the culprit, but just that the cue is coming in at an angle closer to the CB's final trajectory...no?

 

[Colin Colenso]

From your diagram, it looks like the cue is coming in at a different angle than the conventional swiping angle. If that were the case, then I don't think squirt is really the culprit, but just that the cue is coming in at an angle closer to the CB's final trajectory...no?

Yes, the squirt would still be there, but the cue is coming in slightly from right to left, rather than straight, or left to right as is the case with standard type swipe, or what is called tuck (left to right with tip by tucking in wrist toward body), and roll (right to left with tip by rolling wrist out from body).

This is for a right handed player.

Also note: The action doesn't need to be done with the wrist, it can originate at the shoulder also or a combination of both which is the way I prefer to do it.

I'm finding it quite useful in my system of alignment for BHE, particulary with low to medium speed shots when I have to use a shorter bridge length. If I don't use it, I have to make my initial alignment a few degrees away from the pocket.

 

[Flex]

Yes, the squirt would still be there, but the cue is coming in slightly from right to left, rather than straight, or left to right as is the case with standard type swipe, or what is called tuck (left to right with tip by tucking in wrist toward body), and roll (right to left with tip by rolling wrist out from body).

This is for a right handed player.

Also note: The action doesn't need to be done with the wrist, it can originate at the shoulder also or a combination of both which is the way I prefer to do it.

I'm finding it quite useful in my system of alignment for BHE, particulary with low to medium speed shots when I have to use a shorter bridge length. If I don't use it, I have to make my initial alignment a few degrees away from the pocket.

I tried out the shot this afternoon and it worked just fine.

On another note, I found that the pivot point for a specific shaft will vary depending on which cue ball is used.

The other day when I made my measurements of the pivot point and using BHE too, I shot with a red circle cue ball. Today, I was shooting with a blue circle ball, which is a bit heavier. I found that the pivot point on a shot both one diamond away was much shorter with the blue ball than the red one. The red one came in at 17 inches; the blue one at 14 inches...

Everything else was the same, same table, centennial balls, etc. And the change of cue ball also affected the various distances when calculating the use of BHE too.

One more variable...

Flex

 

[Gregg]

Does this type of back hand English have anything to do with a Deflection Shot, Like Burt Kinister demonstrates on his "Deflection Shot" tape?

 

[Gabber]

Yes, it's a slightly right to left movement.

The diagram below gives a good example of a shot where this works very well, and explains the way the cue moves.

On this shot, the CB is about 6 inches from the rail, so we cannot use a 12-14" bridge as the shot would require for standard BHE adjustment for straight cueing. You may be able to do it with a long fingertip on edge rail bridge, but this bridge is unstable and hard to align with I find. Also can result in more swerve. Pivoting means that you pivot around the pivot point, not the bridge. The bridge could be anywhere on the pivot line.

So, with a rail bridge, fingers over the cue at about 6-7" the black line indicates the initial center ball alignment for a standard pot.

The yellow line indicates the line of the cue after the backhand pivot with cue near the CB.

The red line indicates where my cue is pointing at the back of the backswing. I then stroke the cue from this point to the CB contact point. The line is slightly right to left compared to the CB direction of travel.

I just tried this shot several times. A shot I think many players including myself don't like. Each shot went straight in the middle and the side did its job for position as shown.

A lot of shots like this come up, where CB is close to the rail. It can be a great way to adjust for english I feel. Reverse Swipe...take it to the bank!

Reverse swipe???? I dont think so.
I think what you have here is a complex solution to a very simple problem.

Colin, if you want to do well in the IPT, you should be practicing on easy run-outs and playing tourneys and not be trying to 'reinvent the wheel'. If you keep this up, by the time you get on the table at the IPT, you wont know how to pot a straight ball anymore. I dont want to sound pompous but I do have some experience in this.
Doing the easy things perfectly is what separates the the top players from the rest, not the amazing runouts. If I was your coach I would say you should be practicing what you know and not be trying to finding out what you dont know.
Pool is really a very simple game. Its people who make it complicated!


BTW, I dont think many would play that shot with IE. Topsin would be enough and there would be no danger of the scratch in the corner. A snooker player would auotomatically see that as a shot tho....ie wanting to be straight.

Gabber.....doesnt know his Q's pivot point and doesnt want to...!

 

[Jal]

Reverse swipe???? I dont think so.
I think what you have here is a complex solution to a very simple problem.

Colin, if you want to do well in the IPT, you should be practicing on easy run-outs and playing tourneys and not be trying to 'reinvent the wheel'. If you keep this up, by the time you get on the table at the IPT, you wont know how to pot a straight ball anymore. I dont want to sound pompous but I do have some experience in this.
Doing the easy things perfectly is what separates the the top players from the rest, not the amazing runouts. If I was your coach I would say you should be practicing what you know and not be trying to finding out what you dont know...

Although I more or less agree with you on this reverse backhand thing (not sure what to make of it yet), I welcome Colin's and anybody elses ideas. They may be right, they may be wrong, but it's interesting and stimulating to mull them over. If anyone invents a foolproof way of aiming with english, he will likely be the one to do so. Sometimes the search leads to a clearer understanding of the more mundane stuff. I'm not saying that you, personally, are being harsh or unfair or trying to inhibit anything, but that there's no harm in hearing the man out. At the very least, it keeps one in 'student of the game' mode, which is a good place to be.

Jim

 

[Colin Colenso]

Although I more or less agree with you on this reverse backhand thing (not sure what to make of it yet), I welcome Colin's and anybody elses ideas. They may be right, they may be wrong, but it's interesting and stimulating to mull them over. If anyone invents a foolproof way of aiming with english, he will likely be the one to do so. Sometimes the search leads to a clearer understanding of the more mundane stuff. I'm not saying that you, personally, are being harsh or unfair or trying to inhibit anything, but that there's no harm in hearing the man out. At the very least, it keeps one in 'student of the game' mode, which is a good place to be.

Jim

Thanks Jal, for making some points points I intended to make.

For Gabber, I've never much liked being coached anyway, so I won't take your advice for much other than you can choose your way and I'll choose my own. I've played in hundreds of tournaments in my day and know what you are saying about keeping it simple.

But shots come up in games that require utilizing english when it would be easier to just roll the ball or take the natural angle.

As Jal suggested, testing all these things has helped me form a clearer understanding of all the variables, and it is allowing me to make a lot of shots more consistently that previously were guesses.

It's best to stick with what you know, but increasing your knowledge gives a player a bigger arsenal. That is the point of my experimenting. As I will be practicing 4 to 8 hours a day for the next 8 months, I have a big opportunity to add some advanced skills to my skill.

What I like about the system is it doesn't interfere with steady simple center CB ball playing, as every stroke is made with the same alignment as if for center ball at medium speed. My accuracy at aligning for that is getting better and better.

I can basically set up the bridge and the simply watch the CB and focus 100% on the speed of shot and hit on the CB for position. No second guessing. The calucuations are done before the shot.

eg. I can work out at Medium speed, CB and OB 3 feet apart in need bridge length of 16 inches for IE or OE. If I can only bridge at 10" due to a rail or ball I can use reverse-swipe or aim thick for OE or thin of IE. If I have to bridge at 22" I can use regular swipe or aim thinner for OE and thicker for IE.

It's a hell of a lot simpler than how I used to align, which is like most other players which is just guess and hope the subconscious memory works when needing to play english.

 

[Flex]

Thanks Jal, for making some points points I intended to make.

For Gabber, I've never much liked being coached anyway, so I won't take your advice for much other than you can choose your way and I'll choose my own. I've played in hundreds of tournaments in my day and know what you are saying about keeping it simple.

But shots come up in games that require utilizing english when it would be easier to just roll the ball or take the natural angle.

As Jal suggested, testing all these things has helped me form a clearer understanding of all the variables, and it is allowing me to make a lot of shots more consistently that previously were guesses.

It's best to stick with what you know, but increasing your knowledge gives a player a bigger arsenal. That is the point of my experimenting. As I will be practicing 4 to 8 hours a day for the next 8 months, I have a big opportunity to add some advanced skills to my skill.

What I like about the system is it doesn't interfere with steady simple center CB ball playing, as every stroke is made with the same alignment as if for center ball at medium speed. My accuracy at aligning for that is getting better and better.

I can basically set up the bridge and the simply watch the CB and focus 100% on the speed of shot and hit on the CB for position. No second guessing. The calucuations are done before the shot.

eg. I can work out at Medium speed, CB and OB 3 feet apart in need bridge length of 16 inches for IE or OE. If I can only bridge at 10" due to a rail or ball I can use reverse-swipe or aim thick for OE or thin of IE. If I have to bridge at 22" I can use regular swipe or aim thinner for OE and thicker for IE.

It's a hell of a lot simpler than how I used to align, which is like most other players which is just guess and hope the subconscious memory works when needing to play english.

Amen, brother!

Since I started experimenting with your ideas regarding shooting with english and the point and pivot method, I'm potting balls that were toughie feel shots much more consistently now. There's no doubt in my mind that BHE is the way to go for a whole slew of shots. There are other times when I'll use the parallel method because the shot is so ingrained and I just know how to pot it virtually every time that I don't need to change things around.

Suffice it to say that force follow shots at distance and speed with english are no longer a nightmare for me. Is that something to be happy about? Take a guess!

Cheers!

Flex

 

[Gabber]

Although I more or less agree with you on this reverse backhand thing (not sure what to make of it yet), I welcome Colin's and anybody elses ideas.Me too. They may be right, they may be wrong, but it's interesting and stimulating to mull them over.Sure is. If anyone invents a foolproof way of aiming with english, he will likely be the one to do so. Thats the point, there is no fool-proof aiming system. Sometimes the search leads to a clearer understanding of the more mundane stuff. Sometimes it can lead you in the wrong direction and mess up your whole game.I'm not saying that you, personally, are being harsh or unfair or trying to inhibit anything, but that there's no harm in hearing the man out. I,m still listening. At the very least, it keeps one in 'student of the game' mode, which is a good place to be.

Jim

Gabber...................

 

[CaptainJR]

Exorcise 1. Take out a piece of paper and a pencil. Sign your name at the top of the paper.

Exorcise 2. Now keeping the pencil in your right hand (talking right handed here) take hold of the eraser end of the pencil with your left hand. Lay your right hand on the paper as usual. Now sign your name again, while holding the eraser still with your left hand.

Exorcise 3. Now still keeping hold of the pencil with both hands, sign your name again only this time do it by moving the eraser with your left hand. Your right hand can move across the paper to go to the right so you don't right over the previous letter, but make the letter shapes by moving the eraser with your left hand.

Of the second and third exorcises, which is more difficult?

 

[Flex]

Originally Posted by Jal
Although I more or less agree with you on this reverse backhand thing (not sure what to make of it yet), I welcome Colin's and anybody elses ideas.Me too. They may be right, they may be wrong, but it's interesting and stimulating to mull them over.Sure is. If anyone invents a foolproof way of aiming with english, he will likely be the one to do so. Thats the point, there is no fool-proof aiming system. Sometimes the search leads to a clearer understanding of the more mundane stuff. Sometimes it can lead you in the wrong direction and mess up your whole game.I'm not saying that you, personally, are being harsh or unfair or trying to inhibit anything, but that there's no harm in hearing the man out. I,m still listening. At the very least, it keeps one in 'student of the game' mode, which is a good place to be.

Jim

Gabber...................

While there may be no foolproof method of aiming, his ideas sure go a long way...

Flex

 

[Colin Colenso]

Gabber..................."Thats the point, there is no fool-proof aiming system."

I agree. There are a lot of variables such as cloth type,humidity and most importantly, the ability to actually align to the correct point in the first place.

There are systems I don't like much, the system I am currently trialing and discussing is showing great success for me. Hopefully others find a use for it, but the conversion may be a little tricky as our minds tend to divert back to old ways.

I suggest those interested try it a little, and if they find some success, they can spend more time on it.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Cornerman]

It's a hell of a lot simpler than how I used to align, which is like most other players which is just guess and hope the subconscious memory works when needing to play english

All of your work and examination is worth it.

Fred