Rhythm

berlowmj said:
For me, one of the most useful comments on this forum was the suggestion that the practice strokes should be at the same velocity as the stroke when the trigger is pulled. I confirmed it by watching the masters on youtube & only looking at their stroke.

When I slowed my practice strokes, I found that they had been erratic & poking. The number of practice strokes was also drastically reduced. I went from counting 3 strokes to a subsconcious 3-5.

This all moved me to a higher level.

Now my attention has turned to my eye movement between CB & OB. When I pause after feeling comfortable with the practice strokes, I find that my eyes move from CB to OB & back to CB & then focus on OB before pulling the trigger.

I feel like my next step should be to eliminate some eye movements & try to pause, move my focus to the OB & fire.

Commentary welcome.
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This may have been covered here but I disagree with the advice in principle. And I?m sure there?s some with different opinions.

First of all I believe rhythm starts from the moment you get out of your chair to look at a shot and ends with the follow through with everything else
in between also playing a role as well. To me rhythm = consistancy. When you dance you're supposed to follow the beat of the song. Some do this well and some like me don't. In billiards you develope your own beat to follow. As a side bar don't watch your opponent too closly or you'll find yourself playing to their beat. No matter how you play you're somewhere between good and bad rhythm. Bad rhythm is inconsistant and good rhythm is consistant. Following the tech. handed down from the old masters and taught by todays qualified instructors is where you need to attempt to bring your game.

I like to compare a pool stroke to a golf stroke. Even though I have about a 40 handicap. Like pool, in golf, there's varying strengths/speeds in the swing depending on how far you need to hit the ball. If you watch pro golfers their back swings are always the same speed and the forward stroke is where club speed varies. Slow back stroke, slight pause then accelerate. Smoothness/effectiveness IMO comes in part, from your control of the rate of acceleration and tip speed at the time of contact.

With a rapid pool back stroke your arm, wrist, and muscles don't have the time to convert to their new job of moving forward. The weight of the cue and weight of your arm are working against you with a fast back stroke during the transition of moving backward to forward. Called kinetic energy. The laws of physics cannot be avoided. Please stay within the law or you'll get locked up.

This technique may be working for you now but at some point you will hit a wall (get locked up). Everyone does. This will be an area you may want to reconsider at that time.
 
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Ray...See post #31 above:

Bouncing eyes? What the heck does that mean anyway?

Your eyes, IMO, should move from the cueball to the object ball during your backstroke, and back down to the cueball as your stroke comes forward. Is this what you mean by bouncing? If so, let me say that this should be perfectly normal.

I must interject here also that I have heard that Randy G adjusts his students' personal eye movement into their stroking. I have heard this from this from one of his instructors and from 3 students. Personally, I would be VERY LEARY of this.

This is what I mean. You don't know what an effective eye pattern is, nor how it works. Your eyes have to work in tandem with your brain and your body, to produce consistent results in your stroke delivery. The reason I did not "teach" this to you and Laura (almost 9 yrs ago) is because I was unaware of it myself. Better teachers continue to learn new techniques and better ways to communicate them to their students...:D . Actually I have worked with several pro players, some of which you may know. They prefer to remain anonymous, and it doesn't matter to me what you may think about my abilities. You already posted your feelings...and I put them here for everyone to see. Now you want to think differently...that's ok too! :D
Oz says it best...You just don't know what you don't know!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

whitewolf said:
Well Scott, all I have to say is for you to show a post of mine where I say that you don't have to have an Eye Pattern. :rolleyes: .
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John Wooden said something to the effect that if we stop learning we might as well be dead. Props to you Scott for not being wary of admitting that you were not always aware of proper eye patterns. Thanks berlowmj for setting up the link to the article. Always something new and interesting on this forum. Now if we could just get rid of the personal animosities and rancor that rise to the surface all to often.
 
berlowmj said:
I found discussions realted to hockey & rifle shooting, but finally found one directly related to pool at

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/06/990615154337.htm

Wow!!!
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Interesting. Here's one conclusion

"In their tests, Singer and Frehlich found pool players who had the longest quiet eye duration -- those who focused the longest on meaningful objects such as a cue ball and the target ball -- before shooting were the most successful with their shots, Singer said."

So my question is.... Is the success of these long focusing shooters due to some quiet eye focusing rythym blah blah blah or is it due to another complication ...


...

known as

...


AIMING?
 
Scott,

Is OZ guilty of Plagiary?

"You don't know what you don't know."

I thought I owned that that one? How dare OZ steal this from me!!

Or was I properly footnoted?

I'll be with my lawyer this afternoon to investigate the matter and weigh my options.
 
mikepage said:
The fact is, Scott, some players pause at the end of their backstrokes and others do not. This is reality, and it's perfectly consistent with Newton's Laws of motion. I can perfectly understand your reluctance to accept this considering I now gather you have been teaching something different to students and therefore feel a need now to defend it. But if you teach the above, then you are just plain wrong. My opinion is you should stop teaching that.

A pause is when the velocity and acceleration of the cue are both zero. That means it needs to be still and also have a tendency to remain still, even if just for a short time. This is not going to happen by accident; it requires a deliberate balancing force.

A common no-pause-at-the-backstroke stroke has a nonzero acceleration when it stops at the end of the backstroke -- just like a child on a swing or the tides on a beach or the time-keeping pendulum on a grandfather clock, or a person on a bungee cord ----not a pause in sight.
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I have to agree with mike on this. Given Mike's definition, it is definite that not all players have pauses in their stroke. Allison does have a pause in her stroke. Efren does NOT have a pause in his stroke.

Now, if you want to define "pause" as the point of zero velocity only, then it's obvious that every stroke would have this "pause" since the cue has to change direction from the backstroke. But this would be a completely pointless definition.

I do feel that it is important to get the precise definition squared away.
 
Scaramouche said:
First part is an amateur cartoon that our instructors would not endorse.:D
You can get through it quick using the cursor.
Second part is an example of bouncing eyes

Ralf?s Eyes
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cANuhMvwUCw
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I was taught this pattern from a qualified instructor and was never able to get it down. I don't dance well either.

If you look again at Ralf, he takes a hard look at the CB before getting down. Then just before his final stroke there's a longer look at the OB then ..... BANG.

I believe this is an acceptable pattern version, in that his eyes are "in sync" with his stroke Back = OB, Forward = CB until the final CB look. What most people do is look back and forth randomly. There's no rhythm, reason or rhyme.

Scott's version as I understand it is much easier to ingrain. Line it up, get down looking at the CB. At the time of the delivery stroke go to the OB either at the beginning of the backstroke or beginning of the forward stroke, always being consistent in your choice. If you need a check up, the cue stops while you look to the OB. Ideally if your lineup technique is good you should never need the check up. Just the confidence and a consistent pattern.
 
3kushn said:
[...]

Scott's version as I understand it is much easier to ingrain. Line it up, get down looking at the CB. At the time of the delivery stroke go to the OB either at the beginning of the backstroke or beginning of the forward stroke, always being consistent in your choice. If you need a check up, the cue stops while you look to the OB. Ideally if your lineup technique is good you should never need the check up. Just the confidence and a consistent pattern.
Click to expand...


This makes sense.

Scott do you recommend doing this on absolutely every shot? Or are there some shots (say close shots where tip placement is critical but where there's a lot of play in the aim or when shooting over a ball) where you recommend looking at the cueball on the final stroke.
 
Is there more to The Quiet Eye other than aiming?

mikepage said:
So my question is.... Is the success of these long focusing shooters due to some quiet eye focusing rythym blah blah blah or is it due to another complication ...
...

known as

...

AIMING?
Click to expand...

Mike, here is an excerpt from an article on The Quiet Eye that indicates that there is more to it than simply aiming.

It sounds simple, but Janelle's research has shown that experts in a particular sport, such as shooting, wait longer after focusing on their target and are able to quiet the left side of their brain, which sends analytical messages that interrupt deep concentration, much more effectively than less-experienced participants.
 
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3kushn said:
This may have been covered here but I disagree with the advice in principle. And I?m sure there?s some with different opinions.

First of all I believe rhythm starts from the moment you get out of your chair to look at a shot and ends with the follow through with everything else
in between also playing a role as well. To me rhythm = consistancy. When you dance you're supposed to follow the beat of the song. Some do this well and some like me don't. In billiards you develope your own beat to follow. As a side bar don't watch your opponent too closly or you'll find yourself playing to their beat. No matter how you play you're somewhere between good and bad rhythm. Bad rhythm is inconsistant and good rhythm is consistant. Following the tech. handed down from the old masters and taught by todays qualified instructors is where you need to attempt to bring your game.

I like to compare a pool stroke to a golf stroke. Even though I have about a 40 handicap. Like pool, in golf, there's varying strengths/speeds in the swing depending on how far you need to hit the ball. If you watch pro golfers their back swings are always the same speed and the forward stroke is where club speed varies. Slow back stroke, slight pause then accelerate. Smoothness/effectiveness IMO comes in part, from your control of the rate of acceleration and tip speed at the time of contact.

With a rapid pool back stroke your arm, wrist, and muscles don't have the time to convert to their new job of moving forward. The weight of the cue and weight of your arm are working against you with a fast back stroke during the transition of moving backward to forward. Called kinetic energy. The laws of physics cannot be avoided. Please stay within the law or you'll get locked up.

This technique may be working for you now but at some point you will hit a wall (get locked up). Everyone does. This will be an area you may want to reconsider at that time.
Click to expand...

This is a tremendous post and a lesson in itself. This is exactly what I'm working on now; a nice pace to my game, with an emphasis on being more patient and focused in all aspects. My natural tenancy is to be aggressive and sometimes I rush the shots.

This is part of the mental game. Improving pace and flow at the table is a way of improving our performance without actually gaining any additional accuracy or cue skills.

Chris
 
charlieb said:
John Wooden said something to the effect that if we stop learning we might as well be dead. Props to you Scott for not being wary of admitting that you were not always aware of proper eye patterns. Thanks berlowmj for setting up the link to the article. Always something new and interesting on this forum. Now if we could just get rid of the personal animosities and rancor that rise to the surface all to often.
Click to expand...

Thanks CB! :D Here's a direct quote from John Wooden: "It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!" See you in three weeks! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
mikepage said:
This makes sense.

Scott do you recommend doing this on absolutely every shot? Or are there some shots (say close shots where tip placement is critical but where there's a lot of play in the aim or when shooting over a ball) where you recommend looking at the cueball on the final stroke.
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Mike:

We teach the Standard P.E.P and the Xtra P.E.P in school. There could be 5 different situations when you might want to look at the cueball last.....SPF=randyg
 
Mike...I am not going to debate you on this, or any other issue. However, P.E.P.'s are an integral part of the overall SOP (standard operating procedure) that all serious students of the game endeavor to create. IOW, a 'seamless' subconscious process of appraising the situation, and a consistent repeatable setup and delivery process (mental and physical) is what will bring up a player's ability level, regardless of their current level...even a pro. However, before it can become 'subconscious', it must be BUILT, using a conscious, dedicated process (training + practice = consistency).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

mikepage said:
This makes sense.

Scott do you recommend doing this on absolutely every shot? Or are there some shots (say close shots where tip placement is critical but where there's a lot of play in the aim or when shooting over a ball) where you recommend looking at the cueball on the final stroke.
Click to expand...
 
jsp said:
I have to agree with mike on this. Given Mike's definition, it is definite that not all players have pauses in their stroke. Allison does have a pause in her stroke. Efren does NOT have a pause in his stroke.

Now, if you want to define "pause" as the point of zero velocity only, then it's obvious that every stroke would have this "pause" since the cue has to change direction from the backstroke. But this would be a completely pointless definition.

I do feel that it is important to get the precise definition squared away.
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Jsp,

The ultimate nitpick would be to note that according to modern physics, the cue never really passes exactly through zero velocity...but I would never bring this up. :)

Your point about the definition of "pause" as zero velocity being pointless is right on, imo, but I can also see Scott's side in that this seems a bit of a semantics issue.

Jim
 
randyg said:
Mike:

We teach the Standard P.E.P and the Xtra P.E.P in school. There could be 5 different situations when you might want to look at the cueball last.....SPF=randyg
Click to expand...


Thanks Randy.

What are the five you teach?
 
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