Rhythm

[RBLilly]

I would think that your focus should be accurate aiming, as that is paramount in improving your game. Eye movements do not pocket balls.

Yes, but eye movement gives the brain information. If your eye patterns are messed up then the information given to your brain is messed up, and then you mess up the shot.

Ask any of the instructors in here what they think of Personal Eye Patterns.

 

[Fatboy]

Tang Hoa takes a couple warm up strokes, an pauses with the tip at the cue ball, then a couple more and pauses at the back stroke then shoots the shot, its a great rythem, I have been working on it and when I do it right wow it works great I just have to keep at it-its the best thing I've used. pause at the CB then pause at the top before the shot.

 

[Kevin]

No, this is false.

You and/or gravity have to give the cue a forward force that slows it down, sends it's velocity right through zero, and accelerates it forward. The velocity going through zero is not a pause, though I can see this is a common misconception.

For a pause, there has to be no force on the cue. At the end of the backstroke, there is always a gravitational force on the cue. A pause requires your muscles balance the gravitational force. That's what Buddy Hall does, balances the gravitational force with his muscles for a time at the end of the backswing.

Mike. At some point semantics, or how we talk about things, gets in the way of physical laws, which we all understand intuitively and abide by, but sometimes our words aren't always up to it.

You neglected friction, or, the bridge either open or closed, which because the skin moves effectively provides moment enough for pause for our pea brains.

Case in point, you state: "No, this is false. You and/or gravity have to give the cue a forward force that slows it down, sends it's velocity right through zero, and accelerates it forward. The velocity going through zero is not a pause, though I can see this is a common misconception."

I think you actually meant the backswing needed to slow down to zero before the forward swing. At any point, velocity of the cue from back to forward does reach zero as defined by physics at some moment in time, be it biceps, gravity, or bridge friction, ultimately doesn't matter).

Anyway, there are many ways to skin the cat, and deliberate pause or not, the final forward stroke as best delivered (aim, spin, speed factored in) wins, more often delivered than not. Just a thought, and thanks for you game Fargo and vids on youtube.

 

[DelaWho???]

Decide what you are looking at when you pull the trigger and stick with it. some like to eye the CB when they pull the trigger and some the OB. The trick is to settle the eyes on the target before pulling the trigger. I find I have a problem when I shift my gaze in the middle of the stroke; ie the cue is moving forward to strike the CB when my eyes transition to the OB. When I do this the butt of my cue seems to want to follow my eye movement, my shoulder starts to drop and I don't get the shot I'm after.

Banger

 

[randyg]

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that I slowed the practice strokes, relaxed, increased fluidity, got in touch with my chi energy, & moved the practice strokes to my subconcious level.

Now I need to do the same for my eye movements. I am feeling some tension in my neck. Bad sign.

Controlled studies have shown the value of mental rehearsal.

Perhaps Hamlet was misquoted & really said, "To pause or not to pause."

As always, A-Z er wisdom & discourse is extraordinarily profound & helpful.

Thank you!!!!

Email me at

randyg@poolschool.com

I will send you some private info.......SPF=randyg

 

[randyg]

Mike. At some point semantics, or how we talk about things, gets in the way of physical laws, which we all understand intuitively and abide by, but sometimes our words aren't always up to it.

You neglected friction, or, the bridge either open or closed, which because the skin moves effectively provides moment enough for pause for our pea brains.

Case in point, you state: "No, this is false. You and/or gravity have to give the cue a forward force that slows it down, sends it's velocity right through zero, and accelerates it forward. The velocity going through zero is not a pause, though I can see this is a common misconception."

I think you actually meant the backswing needed to slow down to zero before the forward swing. At any point, velocity of the cue from back to forward does reach zero as defined by physics at some moment in time, be it biceps, gravity, or bridge friction, ultimately doesn't matter).

Anyway, there are many ways to skin the cat, and deliberate pause or not, the final forward stroke as best delivered (aim, spin, speed factored in) wins, more often delivered than not. Just a thought, and thanks for you game Fargo and vids on youtube.

Well said. Has to start from zero. Mike is just being debative.....SPF=randyg

 

[RBLilly]

Mike. At some point semantics, or how we talk about things, gets in the way of physical laws, which we all understand intuitively and abide by, but sometimes our words aren't always up to it.

You neglected friction, or, the bridge either open or closed, which because the skin moves effectively provides moment enough for pause for our pea brains.

Case in point, you state: "No, this is false. You and/or gravity have to give the cue a forward force that slows it down, sends it's velocity right through zero, and accelerates it forward. The velocity going through zero is not a pause, though I can see this is a common misconception."

I think you actually meant the backswing needed to slow down to zero before the forward swing. At any point, velocity of the cue from back to forward does reach zero as defined by physics at some moment in time, be it biceps, gravity, or bridge friction, ultimately doesn't matter).

Anyway, there are many ways to skin the cat, and deliberate pause or not, the final forward stroke as best delivered (aim, spin, speed factored in) wins, more often delivered than not. Just a thought, and thanks for you game Fargo and vids on youtube.

Well stated!

 

[RRfireblade]

Bottom line is this as I see it . . . in a parallel to potentially one of the most complex movments in sports , the Golf swing , it doesn't matter how you do it and long as you can precisely replicate it each and every time.

IMO , people get so wrapped up in the physics and precise "technique" that they change thier from so often that they never develop the repetition neccesary to make any of it work. Even if your capable of perfect form (which is highly subjective in all cases) quality repetition is what makes you advance as a player.

Unless your doing things that obviously are negatively impacting your progress and/or limiting it then find comfort in your own personal style and groove that.

The devil IS in the details but sometimes when you focus too hard on the details , he get's out.

 

[berlowmj]

exorcised the devil in practice tonight

Bottom line is this as I see it . . . in a parallel to potentially one of the most complex movments in sports , the Golf swing , it doesn't matter how you do it and long as you can precisely replicate it each and every time.

IMO , people get so wrapped up in the physics and precise "technique" that they change thier from so often that they never develop the repetition neccesary to make any of it work. Even if your capable of perfect form (which is highly subjective in all cases) quality repetition is what makes you advance as a player.

Unless your doing things that obviously are negatively impacting your progress and/or limiting it then find comfort in your own personal style and groove that.

The devil IS in the details but sometimes when you focus too hard on the details , he get's out.

I continued with my slow practice strokes & eliminated all eye movements except moving from the CB to focus on the OB. That is practice strokes, pause, moved focus from CB to OB & then "pulled the trigger." I experienced considerable growth in my learning curve.

I wish the rhythm section of the pool books had gone into more detail. I'm fortunate to have you A-Zers to supplement my reading.

Thank you!!!!

 

[mikepage]

Well said. Has to start from zero. Mike is just being debative.....SPF=randyg

Randy I'm not just being debative.

Some people have responded to me that the cue has to slow down to a stop on the backswing and has to begin the foward stroke from zero velocity.

Whenever somebody says that it is a clue to me that they don't get what I'm saying. Of course the forward stroke has to start from zero velocity; that's not the issue here.

That point of zero velocity is not a pause.

Here is a graph of the velocity of a few strokes from the end of the backswing to the early part of the foward stroke. Each of the three strokes starts out with negative velocity (i.e., going backwards) and starts with the velocity approaching zero (i.e., slowing to a stop).

The first two strokes have aa pause at the transition. The third stroke has no pause.

 

[whitewolf]

Bouncing eyes will destroy a good shot. Studies have shown increased accuracy with less eye movement.

Scott Lee says everyone has a pause in their stroke, some more pronounced than others. I think if you are taking notice of your pause and how long it is, it becomes exagerated because you are focused on it. The pause is nothing more than the transition from backswing to shot. It should be smooth and natural, something thats in the background, like blinking your eyes, you just do it.

Banger

Bouncing eyes? What the heck does that mean anyway?

Your eyes, IMO, should move from the cueball to the object ball during your backstroke, and back down to the cueball as your stroke comes forward. Is this what you mean by bouncing? If so, let me say that this should be perfectly normal.

I must interject here also that I have heard that Randy G adjusts his students' personal eye movement into their stroking. I have heard this from this from one of his instructors and from 3 students. Personally, I would be VERY LEARY of this. Randy, please confirm this or not. Thanks. BTW, I don't mean to bump Randy's classes in a negative way since they are probably one of the very best around.

On your final backstroke, a bigger pause is helpful IMO, at least for me, because of the following reasons:

(1) Tony Robles told me that whatever you do, make sure that where your hand ends up at the back on your final practice stroke should be where your hand goes on your final stroke. The pause really helps you do this.

(2) To answer your question about pausing at the cueball just before you pull the trigger (final stroke), my opinion is that it helps you relax - i.e. not to rush your shot. As a matter of fact, sometimes I can actually feel the tension rushing out of my arm and mind during this pause.

And more importantly, it helps you make damn sure your tip is going exactly where you want it to go.

In case you are doubtful, Nick Varner is a very big proponent of doing this.

(3) Pausing helps you not to rush the shot. Pausing on the final stroke at the back helps following through properly and straighter.

One more thing about rhythm - the late Papa George told me that shooting was just like dancing - it took rhythm to get from one place to another. IMO, if you are going to do something consistently, it is much easier with a rhythm, or cadence.

If you get into a very definite rhythm, then you can immediately (with feel) detect if your stroke is suddenly doing something different. This could be due to a slightly changed stance for example. If you have no ryhthm, you you have no real feel and can't determine anything because there is no consistency.

Good luck.

 

[DelaWho???]

"Bouncing eyes" is excessive eye movement between the OB and CB. Fewer transitions between OB and CB allows more time to focus, to let your mind see and calculate the shot. When you rapidly shift your gaze between OB and CB you aren't giving your brain enough time to process the information. Whether your final eye position is on the OB or CB is purely preference. My point was to determine where your eyes end up and incorporate that information into your stroke.

Banger

 

[Scott Lee]

I would think that your focus should be accurate aiming, as that is paramount in improving your game. Eye movements do not pocket balls.

Hal...Aiming is only part of the delivery process. You may know a LOT about aiming, but you know NOTHING about eye patterns. Search out information and educate yourself. Google the "quiet eye" study and learn something...

You too, Whitewolf...you presumably have seen or read this study (since you've mentioned it in previous posts), but apparently it didn't make any sense to you. Eye pattern movement is paramount to a smooth, accurate and repeatable set up and delivery process.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Scott Lee]

Randy I'm not just being debative.

Some people have responded to me that the cue has to slow down to a stop on the backswing and has to begin the foward stroke from zero velocity.

Whenever somebody says that it is a clue to me that they don't get what I'm saying. Of course the forward stroke has to start from zero velocity; that's not the issue here.

That point of zero velocity is not a pause.

Here is a graph of the velocity of a few strokes from the end of the backswing to the early part of the foward stroke. Each of the three strokes starts out with negative velocity (i.e., going backwards) and starts with the velocity approaching zero (i.e., slowing to a stop).

The first two strokes have aa pause at the transition. The third stroke has no pause.

Mike...You are being debative, whether you know it or not. The pause is there regardless of whether you think so or not, and regardless of what you diagram. High speed photography PROVES that the stop at the end of the backswing, prior to beginning the forward stroke exists, and is real, regardless of the amount of actual time the cue is "stopped". Newton's Laws of Motion proved this several hundred years ago, and you simply cannot deny it...well, you can, but you're still wrong, and playing semantics. njmo

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Scott Lee]

radge69...Well said!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Everyone has a pause when they transition between backstroke and forward. Even if the eye can't see it, it's there. It's impossible to go back and then forward without some type of pause, even if it's brief where you don't notice it. If you watch a stroke in slow motion, you can see the pause at the transition between the two. JMHO

 

[berlowmj]

aiming as accessing "brain's hard drive"

Hal...Aiming is only part of the delivery process. You may know a LOT about aiming, but you know NOTHING about eye patterns. Search out information and educate yourself. Google the "quiet eye" study and learn something...

You too, Whitewolf...you presumably have seen or read this study (since you've mentioned it in previous posts), but apparently it didn't make any sense to you. Eye pattern movement is paramount to a smooth, accurate and repeatable set up and delivery process.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I can't help wondering how much aiming is the intuitive ability to match a given alignment of balls with a sorting process of all of the successful shots stored in the brain's "hard drive." There are times when I feel an overwhelming confidence to "pull the trigger" & I almost feel guilty when the ball goes in, because I did not "work for it" i.e. intention was minimal. Unfortunately, these zen moments are rare, but they feel good. Perhaps, thats why Efren smiles so much.

Point shooting-Its almost like "point shooting" as a preparation for combat in which the gun sights are taped up & yet we group our shots in the "center mass" of the human silouette target. Taking time to get the sight alignment & picture as we do in bullseye shooting could be fatal because bullseyes dont shoot back.

Please excuse my introspective struggles here, especially as I function at a level so much lower than the many masters on this forum. But I thirst for your discourse, because it accelerates my learning curve.

Thank you in advance!!!!

P.S. I'm off to google the "quiet eye study."

 

[berlowmj]

"quiet eye study"

Hal...Aiming is only part of the delivery process. You may know a LOT about aiming, but you know NOTHING about eye patterns. Search out information and educate yourself. Google the "quiet eye" study and learn something...

You too, Whitewolf...you presumably have seen or read this study (since you've mentioned it in previous posts), but apparently it didn't make any sense to you. Eye pattern movement is paramount to a smooth, accurate and repeatable set up and delivery process.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I found discussions realted to hockey & rifle shooting, but finally found one directly related to pool at

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/06/990615154337.htm

Wow!!!

 

[mikepage]

Mike...You are being debative, whether you know it or not. The pause is there regardless of whether you think so or not, and regardless of what you diagram. High speed photography PROVES that the stop at the end of the backswing, prior to beginning the forward stroke exists, and is real, regardless of the amount of actual time the cue is "stopped". Newton's Laws of Motion proved this several hundred years ago, and you simply cannot deny it...well, you can, but you're still wrong, and playing semantics. njmo

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott -

You don't need high speed video to prove that any pendulum stops at its turning point, i.e., at the end of the backstroke. Of course it slows down, stops, and starts moving in the other direction. What it doesn't do unless there are extra forces is pause in the stopped position. I am more than happy to explain this in terms of Newton's Laws of Motion if you like.

But I fear the real issue here is that you guys have been teaching for a long time that

(1) there's no such thing as stroking without a pause--that everyone pauses at the end of the backstroke.

(2) that your stroking method that includes a deliberate pause is really the same thing as what the apparent no-pause pros do, that their pauses are just short.

(3) You might even tell the students things like that Newton proved there must be a pause hundreds of years ago.

If this is what you teach, then you are misleading your students in all three of these assertions.

This is not to say teaching people to stroke with a pause at the final backswing is not the best way to teach a stroke. Maybe it is. I've spectulated there are a few advantages to ingraining a no-pause stroke. But when it comes down to it this is very much a personal preference thing.

I have no doubt that you guys are effective in developing and ingraining sound stroke sequences in new students and improving the mechanics students at all levels. This discussion is not at all about what you teach students to do.

The fact is, Scott, some players pause at the end of their backstrokes and others do not. This is reality, and it's perfectly consistent with Newton's Laws of motion. I can perfectly understand your reluctance to accept this considering I now gather you have been teaching something different to students and therefore feel a need now to defend it. But if you teach the above, then you are just plain wrong. My opinion is you should stop teaching that.

A pause is when the velocity and acceleration of the cue are both zero. That means it needs to be still and also have a tendency to remain still, even if just for a short time. This is not going to happen by accident; it requires a deliberate balancing force.

A common no-pause-at-the-backstroke stroke has a nonzero acceleration when it stops at the end of the backstroke -- just like a child on a swing or the tides on a beach or the time-keeping pendulum on a grandfather clock, or a person on a bungee cord ----not a pause in sight.

 

[elvicash]

Just to put out an idea I would like to make a statement on the existance of the possibility of no pause at the end of the backswing.

I know and agree that that the bicep/tricep muscles work in oppisition to each other.

I know going back velocity stops and then rises thus a pause in a truly straight linear motion.

However this is all given straight linear motion, no one has exactly this even though we all want it.

I have looked down the stroke of many players and the number which do have side to side motion is quite high, This motion can be somewhat pronounced even in accomplished players.

In the same manner as the earth orbits the sun, some cars race in figure 8's they go from here to there and back again with never a pause (velocity zero) I would suggest that if you look down from above at some players backswings they make a circle at the back come inside go back and come around to the outside going forward or vice versa.

Watch commentators break down golf swings this is sometimes mentioned in that arena.

I have or at least try to have a slight pause in my stroke so do not get me wrong I am pro pause.

 

[whitewolf]

Hal... you know NOTHING about eye patterns. Search out information and educate yourself. Google the "quiet eye" study and learn something...

You too, Whitewolf...you presumably have seen or read this study (since you've mentioned it in previous posts), but apparently it didn't make any sense to you. Eye pattern movement is paramount to a smooth, accurate and repeatable set up and delivery process.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Well Scott, all I have to say is for you to show a post of mine where I say that you don't have to have an Eye Pattern. In fact, if you take the time to read my posts this is exactly what I am saying. i.e. Get rhythm, especially with your eye movements - they should be the same every time. Go read all my posts on 'long distance focusing', since I am the one who actually owns (brought up first and the only one) this concept on AZ, and maybe YOU will get the picture.

Scott, like MikePage said, you are just jumping on the bandwagon. Years ago you told me that after Randy had done an eye pattern examination, it was discovered that your eyes were actually looking at the cueball last before shooting. Yet for years you had been telling students that you looked at the cueball last, and you actually believed that . How are us students supposed to believe a word in what you are saying?

I say that you are jumping on the bandwagon because with me you said NOTHING about eye patterns. One of the most important things in pool Scott, you totally ignored. I have the tapes to prove it. This is why I think you are a very entertaining teacher and are good at some basic things, but that is it. What great pool players have you ever taught anyway?!

All my posts say that you should take a long fixation on the object ball before pulling the trigger - just like the Quiet Eye theory says.

Since Randy won't pop in here, I will state what a student of his told me about Randy's analysis of how much one fixates on the object ball. A person who has only a brief moment fixating on the object ball is a 'weak' fixater, with an arbitrary rating of one. My friend told me that I took a good long stare at the object ball before firing and that Randy classified this as a three.

From my conversation with you Scott, you are a one. And this goes with all that stuff I have been saying about your game Scott - you could, and even still, could be a world beater pool player, if you corrected your own eye movements. But you don't take advice from Rodney Dangerfield and you are stubborn. Like Mike said, you would like to spend more time justifying yourself. No truer words have ever been spoken

You and Randy are in the same boat. Both of you talk about eye movements, but you really never tell us anything substantive on the forum. I wonder, is it because both of you don't know what the heck you are talking about, or that you don't want to take the heat from other forum members who can really play well should you make a blunder and say something wrong? Or maybe you just want all of us to come take a lesson.