If i want to watch a safety battle, i'll watch one-pocket. I can fully appreciate Efren's kicking skills but a little of that goes a long way, for me anyway. Give me Buddy goin to war with Louie any day. Those guys shot at their hole and were subject to run the whole set at any time. Sure, they ducked at times but it wasn't today's hide-n-seek kick fest. Oh well, glad i got to be around it then.
Roll-out ( 2 fouls, ball in hand )
- Thread starter Michael Andros
- Start date
What makes you think no one had the safe game of today's players? We still played safe when the occasion called for it, sometimes depending on how the other guy played. If you haven't seen the game played you can't compare them, in my way of thinking.
I saw it played both ways. Some places they played if you were on a foul, you remained on one the next time you came to the table. If you fouled again you gave up BIH. Other places they played that once your opponent took a shot your foul was wiped out and it was a new inning.
I can also remember playing "roll out" pool where all BIH's were behind the line, and if you didn't like the shot you could pass it back to the guy who just fouled, and he couldn't push out. He had to shoot or play safe. If he fouled three times it was loss of game. This could (and did) happen if the object ball was tied up.
Probably the most common way 9-Ball was played back in the 60's and 70's was "try to hit the ball." You had to make an honest attempt to hit the object ball (a safety was fine). There was no push out, except after the break. If you failed to hit the object ball, your opponent could take the shot or give it back to you. That would continue until either you hit the ball or your opponent took the shot. All balls also spotted up in this version of the game. It might sound funny to modern day players, but it was not a bad way to play. It was kind of a hustler's delight. You could look lucky but still be in complete control of the game!
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First time i ever played 9b it was "honest effort" as you described it. Simple, fun to way to play. People shot at their hole(well, most of the time anyway) and tried to get out.
Sorry Mike, but I have to call you on one statement. RO was NOT the same everywhere. I'm still trying to understand all the rules mentioned here. Took a while to put some things together my head. Jay gave the best explanation so far. But i have seen at least 3 (maybe 5) different ways to play mentioned here.
If you were going from New Jersey to Bakersfield to gamble, you better have made damn sure exactly how they played it out there.
As the numbers of people entering tournaments grew, they not only had to speed up play. The main thing I think they had to do was standardize the rules across the country.
I would like to see someone put on a mini tournament using Run out rules. Then post it on YouTube. Most of us are not part of the Alzheimer's Academy. So you will have to show us. I might end up being a fan of it. But so far, not so much.
Speaking of Alzheimers, you know you've already asked for a video, right? You think someone will have a tournament, record it, and post it so you can make your decision? Its not that hard to figure out and the variations are slight. As for the tournaments, changing to one-foul was about one thing: speeding up matches to fit a tournaments schedule/timeframe. I remember when TexasExpress started and standardizing rules or making the game better was not part of the equation. When OF first started most still gambled at 2shot until the nits who liked the luck factor of one-shot wouldn't play unless it was their way. Pretty soon one-foul was everywhere and the game hasn't gotten any better. Imagine that.
As I recall, it was the nits who either couldn't figure out what to do or execute from where the ball lay- like every other pool game.
Thinking they are triple slick, strategetizin over the 2 ball and couldn't get out from under a tissue anyway...psssshaw.
S
Thinking they are triple slick, strategetizin over the 2 ball and couldn't get out from under a tissue anyway...psssshaw.
S
Don't talk down to me. I know I asked for a video already. And i have figured most of it out since then.
And a video is not just for my benefit, but for everyone here that hasn't been playing pool since Jesus was born.
You can do one of two things.... you can promote this way of playing through video, so the rest of us can see it done, which can be done in less time in your basement then the time you took with all your responses on this thread.....
Or... you can just reminisce about it here on AZ and let it die for good.
Your choice.
You really need to go to Vegas. They're always short of cut-rate comedians. Seriously, 2shot was the only way the game was played when i started. Nobody knew any different. All of a sudden here's one-foul and everyone was supposed to like it? Action died quicker than the red-shirted guy on StarTrek when OF started. You were better off playing dice or pitching quarters at the spot.
Thems Nancy rules! Why don't you play honest effort?
A real man plays ball in hand after every miss.
To the hell with the Vegas!
Video isn't going to be some miraculous revelation.
The games are so similar- at a good player's level- that the vast majority of game play will be identical.
The games are so similar- at a good player's level- that the vast majority of game play will be identical.
Hey, that Jesus cat could play. And that water-to-wine trick? Talk about a party animal. :thumbup:
Good one!:grin-square:
Hey Buckshot -
When I was @ 8 yrs old or thereabouts. my uncle told me never argue race, religion or politics, as you would never convince anyone of something beyond what they already believed... he shoulda tossed in one foul vs RO as well.
What you grew up knowing is exactly that, it's what you know. By instinct, and it's really a natural survival instinct, people stick with what life experience has taught them. I will never fault anyone, per se, for what they believe. I would, however, if motivated ( and, trying to be a fair-minded person, I like to think I would spend that time at least the majority of the time someone's beliefs didn't match mine ) spend a fair amount of time trying to understand why they believe something. So, I do "get" why people who have never played or seen played, anything other than 1 foul, feel it is the only way to go. I do. I get it. That, in no way, means I agree with it or like it. Because I don't, on either front. But I would be an idiot, which I don't think I am ( but, hey... jury could yet be out on that ), to think RO is "coming back". I wish it was. But for all intents and purposes, it's dead as the proverbial door nail.
My belief is, a game I love and have committed untold thousands of hours in my life both promoting and, more importantly, to me anyway, trying to understand, in every one of its myriad subtleties, the beauty and mystery of that game, is suffering. And it's lost some of that mystery and beauty. And it's heartbreaking to me in a way. Am I gonna break down and cry, sweating a match these days because they're playing "Duck and Cover"? Nahh... but I promise you, I won't ever sweat a match or match-up these days without thinking to myself, "Jesus... are you guys ever gonna go for something?" But that's because of what I grew up with.
Now... all that said. Mr Helfert has, in all probability, forgotten more about pool than I will ever know. I'm sure he's not the only one here who fits into that category, but we're talking about Jay at this point, so, I'll stick with him. I First hit a ball in 1960. I was 5 years old. I started taking it seriously in the late summer, fall, of 1967. I was 12, and then 13. That's when my love affair with the game really began. And I fell hard. I was infatuated. I wanted to know everything I could about it. I learned ( some, but not nearly enough ) about 3 cushion, cowboy pool, 3 ball, pill pool, cribbage, snooker, golf, 8 ball, 14.1, 6 ball, one pocket, banks... And then there was 9 ball. And she, my friend, she... was the most beautiful girl at the dance. And not only was she the prettiest. She was the smartest. The wittiest. The most mysterious. And, to me, by FAR, the most dangerous. To say I was enraptured by her would be understating it. I was, head over heels... in love.
So, I learned everything about 9 ball I possibly could. I picked brains. I watched. I listened. But most of all? I played. I played here. I played when we went on vacation in the Carolinas and Georgia. I played when I was stationed at Ft Ord in California. I played all over the mid-south when I was stationed at Ft Polk Louisiana. And I spent a good year, scuffling around the entire South and Southeast with one of the greatest players I've ever seen. And I learned a lot. A whole lot. And one thing I learned was, there are variations, everywhere you go. But the main thrust of the rules of 9 ball back then was this: you went for your shots. If you didn't have a shot, then you did your best to play safe. It was always "Best Effort". If you got hooked, you rolled out to a shot you felt you might make, but difficult enough that your opponent wouldn't want it.
That, I feel, is the crux of the difference between 9 ball now and 9 ball then. Best Effort. And, yeah, I know 99% of those who know nothing other than 1 foul will say playing safeties instead of going for a more difficult shot *is* Best Effort. I simply disagree. And because I grew up learning and playing what, for me, is almost another game altogether, I feel somewhat violated, every time I see "Duck and Cover". Is that fair? I don't think that even comes into play. "Fair" doesn't matter. It is what it is. C'est la vie. Do I have to like it or agree with it? No. And I don't. And no swinging d**k is ever gonna convince me 1 foul is a better game than RO. That doesn't make me right and them wrong or, vice versa. It's just the way it is.
But I'll tell ya what. I still love that girl. And you know what else? She hasn't aged one friken' day. Not one. She's just as pretty, just as smart, just as witty, just as mysterious as she ever was. And she's still every damned bit as dangerous. And I'm still in love. And I will be til the day they put me in the ground.
So, in closing, do I think you're wrong? At all? Nope. But I do feel sorry for you in a way. Because I feel you've lost out on something for which there really is no explanation. You really had to have been there. I suppose it's akin to the difference between telling someone about being at Woodstock and, actually, having been there. I know you love the game, that's apparent to anyone who is adept to any degree in picking up on nuance. I simply feel you're missing something of which you have no understanding. Something beautiful and powerful. And it's something you'll never know. And because I love that game so much and want to share it with anyone who might take from it the same joy I do... I feel badly for you. That's the wrap-up.
( Man, was this a rambling post. Grady would be exceedingly proud, I think )
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BOOM!! How'd ya hit it brother? Out-of-the-park if you ask me. Well said. 2shot 9ball and NO cell-phones. How did we ever survive??Hey Buckshot -
When I was @ 8 yrs old or thereabouts. my uncle told me never argue race, religion or politics, as you would never convince anyone of something beyond what they already believed... he shoulda tossed in one foul vs RO as well.
So, I do "get" why people who have never played or seen played, anything other than 1 foul, feel it is the only way to go. I do. I get it. That, in no way, means I agree with it or like it. Because I don't, on either front. But I would be an idiot, which I don't think I am ( but, hey... jury could yet be out on that ), to think RO is "coming back". I wish it was. But for all intents and purposes, it's dead as the proverbial door nail.
My belief is, a game I love and have committed untold thousands of hours in my life both promoting and, more importantly, to me anyway, trying to understand, in every one of its myriad subtleties, the beauty and mystery of that game, is suffering. And it's lost some of that mystery and beauty. And it's heartbreaking to me in a way. Am I gonna break down and cry, sweating a match these days because they're playing "Duck and Cover"? Nahh... but I promise you, I won't ever sweat a match or match-up these days without thinking to myself, "Jesus... are you guys ever gonna go for something?" But that's because of what I grew up with.
Now... all that said. Mr Helfert has, in all probability, forgotten more about pool than I will ever know. I'm sure he's not the only one here who fits into that category, but we're talking about Jay at this point, so, I'll stick with him. I First hit a ball in 1960. I was 5 years old. I started taking it seriously in the late summer, fall, of 1967. I was 12, and then 13. That's when my love affair with the game really began. And I fell hard. I was infatuated. I wanted to know everything I could about it. I learned ( some, but not nearly enough ) about 3 cushion, cowboy pool, 3 ball, pill pool, cribbage, snooker, golf, 8 ball, 14.1, 6 ball, one pocket, banks... And then there was 9 ball. And she, my friend, she... was the most beautiful girl at the dance. And not only was she the prettiest. She was the smartest. The wittiest. The most mysterious. And, to me, by FAR, the most dangerous. To say I was enraptured by her would be understating it. I was, head over heels... in love.
So, I learned everything about 9 ball I possibly could. I picked brains. I watched. I listened. But most of all? I played. I played here. I played when we went on vacation in the Carolinas and Georgia. I played when I was stationed at Ft Ord in California. I played all over the mid-south when I was stationed at Ft Polk Louisiana. And I spent a good year, scuffling around the entire South and Southeast with one of the greatest players I've ever seen. And I learned a lot. A whole lot. And one thing I learned was, there are variations, everywhere you go. But the main thrust of the rules of 9 ball back then was this: you went for your shots. If you didn't have a shot, then you did your best to play safe. It was always "Best Effort". If you got hooked, you rolled out to a shot you felt you might make, but difficult enough that your opponent wouldn't want it.
That, I feel, is the crux of the difference between 9 ball now and 9 ball then. Best Effort. And, yeah, I know 99% of those who know nothing other than 1 foul will say playing safeties instead of going for a more difficult shot *is* Best Effort. I simply disagree. And because I grew up learning and playing what, for me, is almost another game altogether, I feel somewhat violated, every time I see "Duck and Cover". Is that fair? I don't think that even comes into play. "Fair" doesn't matter. It is what it is. C'est la vie. Do I have to like it or agree with it? No. And I don't. And no swinging d**k is ever gonna convince me 1 foul is a better game than RO. That doesn't make me right and them wrong or, vice versa. It's just the way it is.
But I'll tell ya what. I still love that girl. And you know what else? She hasn't aged one friken' day. Not one. She's just as pretty, just as smart, just as witty, just as mysterious as she ever was. And she's still every damned bit as dangerous. And I'm still in love. And I will be til the day they put me in the ground.
So, in closing, do I think you're wrong? At all? Nope. But I do feel sorry for you in a way. Because I feel you've lost out on something for which there really is no explanation. You really had to have been there. I suppose it's akin to the difference between telling someone about being at Woodstock and, actually, having been there. I know you love the game, that's apparent to anyone who is adept to any degree in picking up on nuance. I simply feel you're missing something of which you have no understanding. Something beautiful and powerful. And it's something you'll never know. And because I love that game so much and want to share it with anyone who might take from it the same joy I do... I feel badly for you. That's the wrap-up.
( Man, was this a rambling post. Grady would be exceedingly proud, I think )
Cause we be pirates, my man... PIRATES!
It was well said. If you really believe it is something that will be lost to history, do something about it. Get a few old farts together and show us how it was done.
My video request is not unreasonable, or undoable. It's the easiest thing you can do with today's technology. Mike is right. You can reminisce and talk about it all you want. But I will never truly understand the attraction unless I see it or play it. Using Mike's description of a woman..... you can describe to me a beautiful woman with a 500 word paragraph. But I will NEVER understand her true beauty unless I do her..... errr... see her for myself!
I do not know anyone I can play these rules with. And playing with myself won't get the job done. At least not as well anyway! Lol. So u guess I'll have to watch someone else do her. You could call I POOL PORN FOR THE UNINFORMED!
Buckshot:
But I will NEVER understand her true beauty unless I do her..... errr... see her for myself!
Careful... that's my old lady yer talkin bout, Willis.
For myself, I'll say I'm not set up to video tape anything, let alone get it up on Youtube or whatever. If someone was so inclined and equipped, I would agree that, hell yes, that would be a capital idea. In the meantime, you've picked up enough about how it's played from here to be able to at least attempt it with someone at the room you go to. And, speaking of which, even though I haven't seen you mention where you play, I'm gonna guess it's a pool room and not a bar. If so, I imagine there are at least a few players there who grew up playing RO ( again, anyone who played prior to 82 or so ). If that's the case, it may take them a few minutes to remember ( 40 years without something takes the wind right out of memory's sails ) how it was played but it's pretty much like riding a bike, so... if you're really interested in learning how it was played, you may want to go that route.
But I will NEVER understand her true beauty unless I do her..... errr... see her for myself!
Careful... that's my old lady yer talkin bout, Willis.
For myself, I'll say I'm not set up to video tape anything, let alone get it up on Youtube or whatever. If someone was so inclined and equipped, I would agree that, hell yes, that would be a capital idea. In the meantime, you've picked up enough about how it's played from here to be able to at least attempt it with someone at the room you go to. And, speaking of which, even though I haven't seen you mention where you play, I'm gonna guess it's a pool room and not a bar. If so, I imagine there are at least a few players there who grew up playing RO ( again, anyone who played prior to 82 or so ). If that's the case, it may take them a few minutes to remember ( 40 years without something takes the wind right out of memory's sails ) how it was played but it's pretty much like riding a bike, so... if you're really interested in learning how it was played, you may want to go that route.