Roll through ball

3RAILKICK

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lately I have been practicing rolling through the OB with the CB for safety play.

How do you aim to predict the cb path after contact? Is there a certain distance between the balls that allow or hinder attempting to 'go through' the ball with relative accuracy? How critical is speed and roll?

Are there limits as to how thick or thin the hit can be to accomplish this, before the aim and CB path become more a 'off the ball' (30 degree rule/tangent line?) situation?


I'm looking for a systematic approach instead of the feel method that I am using now.

thanks
 
Lately I have been practicing rolling through the OB with the CB for safety play.

I'm looking for a systematic approach instead of the feel method that I am using now.

thanks

I would stick with the feel.
Cloth, balls, and your stroke can change results.
 
You take a line through the object ball (using your cue) pointing in the direction that you want the cue ball to stop.

Then when shooting, you aim at that point that exits the object ball with high center and the cue ball will follow that path.

Shallower angles work better for "safety spots" closer to the object ball.

Wider angles, it's harder to control the speed of the cue ball.
 
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RAIL,

There are limitations to these rules and other factors can affect them. The 30 degree rolling CB rule only works between a 1/4 ball hit and 3/4 ball hit where, 1/4 ball hit actually rolls about 27 degrees, 1/2 ball hit rolls about 35 degrees, and 3/4 ball hit rolls about 27 degrees again. Outside those parameters and you lose even more angle ( >1/4) and gain a roll closer to the tangent line (< 3/4).

The tangent rule or 90 rule only applies for a stun shot basically.

Now, hitting with follow will shorten up the initial rebound angle off the OB. So hitting at 1/2 ball with follow will actually send you about 30-32 degrees instead of a rolling 35. Hitting with draw will lengthen the initial contact rebound angle.

Now, speed is a fun little one because the fraction of the ball hit is what separates how much of each ball gets that speed. So, a 1/10 ball hit means that the OB gets 1/10 of the speed you hit with, and 9/10 of the remaining speed will stick with the CB.

Hope this helps =P

-Richard
 
You'd be amazed at how much you can accomplish with a notepad and 20 minutes of practice.

Place an OB centertable. Start with the CB 8-10 inches directly behind it. Hit 95% of OB with center-high CB. Write down the results. Place other balls where the OB and CB land to make sure you're consistant with subsequent shots. Do it at least five times to make sure you're consistant.

Then do the same at 90% of OB. Write down the results.
Then do the same at 85% of OB. Write down the results.
Then do the same at 80% of OB. Write down the results.

For me, it really helps to be able to review my notes away from the table. Much of our memory is repetition and your notes can be an extremely effective form of repetition.
 
Here are some answers...

These are mostly taken from a "Rules of Thumb in Pool" thread that I started here in 2012. There's some valuable stuff here. Each is attributed to the person I first heard it from. Not necessarily the originator.

90 Degree Rule – Dr. Dave Alciatore
The first and most well-known reference line is the tangent line predicted by the 90 degree rule. For a stun shot (aka a “stop shot at an angle”), where the cue ball is sliding with no top or bottom spin at object-ball impact, the cue ball will head exactly in the tangent line direction, which is perpendicular to the object-ball direction.

Avoiding Double Kisses – Freddie The Beard
When the balls line up on a straight line to the middle of the FACING of the corner pocket (the facing on the long rail), the bank is a dead kiss. It is extremely difficult to beat the kiss when the balls are on a line to the middle of the FACING.
When the balls line up on a straight line to the MIDDLE of the back of the POCKET, there is no kiss.
When the cue ball and an imaginary ball at the contact point for the bank are on a line to the center of the pocket, there is a dead kiss if you use follow with no English.
These kisses are usually easy to evade by using English or draw to send the cue ball on a non-kiss path.
The aim on the object ball must be adjusted to allow for the ball action needed for a non–kiss bank.

Throw When Balls Are Close – Bob Jewett
When the object balls are a quarter-inch apart, there is no throw or cut, no matter how you hit them.

Throw When Balls Are Close – Mark Wilson
When the object balls are a quarter-inch apart, they are in a position where it is difficult to predict whether throw or cut, will occur. Judgment of the object ball behavior in this situation is VERY difficult even for expert players.

6:1 Rolling Cue Ball Ratio – Bob Jewett
The ratio of about 6:1 is a useful rule of thumb when playing soft position. Suppose the object ball is six diamonds from a pocket, and you want the cue ball to follow straightforward not more than about one diamond after the collision. If you just get the object ball to the pocket — six diamonds of travel — the (rolling) cue ball will roll forward about one diamond. Another way to state this is that on a full, soft follow shot, the cue ball will go forward one ball for each diamond the object ball travels. At a later time, Bob gives the ratio as 7:1.

Ball in Hand – Bob Jewett
With ball in hand, you should never place the cue ball for a draw shot.

Two Rail Banking – Bob Jewett
If a ball is sent at about a 45 degree angle into the short rail (first) and the long rail (second) it will go close to two rails into the corner.

45 Degree Rule – Dr. Dave Alciatore
If the CB rolls into the short rail at roughly a 45-degree angle, it will head fairly close to the center of the table after contacting the long rail.

Importance of Rolling Cue Ball Through the Center of the Table – Danny Basavich
A cue ball rolling through the center of the table for position cannot scratch unless coming directly from the direction of a pocket (or first hitting at least one more rail). Stated differently, unless the cue ball is rolling straight from a pocket, it cannot scratch directly in a pocket after passing through the center of the table.

Routes Through The Center Of The Table – Mark Finkelstein
Any time the object ball is near the short rail, and between the corner pocket and the center diamond, a rolling cue ball with running English will pass through the center of the table.
Any ball on the long rail from the corner to two diamonds away from the pocket, if hit with a rolling ball with running spin, will travel 3 rails through the center of the table.
The more general rule is that any time the cue ball approaches the short rail at about a 45 degree angle with running spin, the track line will pass through the center of the table.

Banking Frozen Object Balls – Bob Jewett
If the cue ball is straight out from the frozen object ball, the ball has to be at least one diamond up the rail from the target pocket for the bank to be possible using all techniques.

Half Ball Carom (30 Degree Rule) – Dr. Dave Alciatore
If the object ball cut angle is anywhere from 15 degrees to 45 degrees, a rolling cue ball is deflected by very near 30 degrees from its original path.

Equal Distance – Bob Jewett
After a half ball hit, the cue ball and object ball will travel a similar distance.

Shortening Banks By Hitting Firm and Full – Bob Jewett
Banks that are dead using a mirror system (for example from diamond 3 to diamond 1.5), can be shortened by hitting full and firmly (for example, diamond 3 to diamond 1). The idea is if you can get the shot to match the mirror system by subtracting 1 from the cue ball's location, the bank is "on" for the system. So, if you subtract 1 from cue ball's 3, you get 2-to-1, which is a standard mirror bank. Therefore it is “on” for a full, firm bank.

Cue Ball Deflection On Nearly Full Shots – Bob Jewett
If you cut the object ball just a little to one side (3/4 ball or fuller), a rolling cue ball will be deflected about three times the angle to the other side. For example, a five degree cut to the left will result in the cue ball being deflected to the right about 15 degrees.

Path of Rolling Cue Ball After Hit – Shawn Putnam
This is a system to predict the direction the cue ball will go on a rather full hit (about ¾ ball or fuller) after rolling into the object ball with follow. To send the cue ball in a particular direction, visualize the spot on the far side of the object ball that points to where you want the cue ball to go and then aim the cue ball to that point on the far side of the object ball.

Sidespin/Squirt Ratio – Bob Jewett
Two tips of English will produce twice the squirt angle of one tip.

Spin On 14.1 Break Shots – Pat Fleming
Side break:
CB nearer side rail = high
CB & OB equidistant = high outside
OB nearer side rail = bottom outside
Behind rack break:
CB nearer end rail = high outside
CB & OB equidistant = high inside
OB nearer end rail = either, but not as good


The following ROTs were submitted by Dr. Dave Alciatore:
• The trisect system predicts the angle the CB direction changes for a good-action draw shot is 3-times the cut angle.
• For a fairly full hit, with a ball-hit-fraction greater than 3/4, the CB will deflect about 3-times the cut angle (see where the CB goes for different cases).
• For a fairly thin hit, with a ball-hit-fraction less than 1/4, the CB will deflect about 70-75% (about 3/4) of the angle between the aiming line and the tangent line (see where the CB goes for different cases).- The optimal tip height for speed control is 20% of the radius above center (see optimal tip height for speed control).- With a full-hit rolling CB shot, the CB travels about 1/7 the distance of the OB after impact (see ball travel distances).
• With a rolling-CB half-ball hit, the CB and OB separate at close to same speed and same angle (see speed control article).
• With a 45-degree-angle stun shot, the CB and OB separate at the same angle and distance (see speed control article).
• The miscue limit is half of the cue ball's radius from the center, which is the width of the stripe on a striped ball (see "tips" of English articles).
• FHE and BHE can be used to compensate aim for squirt and swerve when using English.
• When playing a safety in 9-ball, try to leave the OB away from a cushion (see "big ball" effect).
• Faster speed can help bank shot accuracy and consistency (see advantages of fast speed).
• For rolling-ball kicks or banks, the through-diamond aiming system is very reliable.
• With shallow-angle kicks, the contact-point mirror system can be very effective.
• For cross-corner bank shots, it is very important to know how to detect and avoid double kisses.
• Bob Jewett's two-times-fuller and ten-times fuller systems are useful to aim frozen carom and kiss shots.
• Maximum CIT, with no English, occurs with slow speed at about a 1/2-ball hit (see maximum throw).
• Maximum SIT occurs with slow speed and about 50% English (see maximum throw).
• Maximum throw, under typical conditions, is about 1 inch per foot of CB travel, which is about 5 degrees.
• Gearing outside English can be used to eliminate throw, but this might not be the best approach for all people and situations (see using outside English to prevent throw and cling).
• The optimal tip height for a lag shot is 20% of the ball radius above center (see lag shot).
• Knowing where different balls tend to go in a 9-ball rack can be useful to know (see pattern racking strategy).
• In 8-ball, a 2nd-ball break from side can be used to make the 8-ball on the break.
• If you use a break cue with a natural pivot length well matched to your bridge length, stroking errors will not affect your accuracy (see pivot-length article).
• For best jump results, aim between the center of the CB and resting point on the cloth (see jump shot article).
• The Coriolis aiming system for masse shots can be very effective.

The following ROTs are from an article written by Jennifer Barretta:

• "If you don't feel confident, fake it."

Jeanette Lee said that not only will faking it eventually get your confidence back, but it won't show weakness to your opponent. Walking around with slumped shoulders makes you look defeated and many opponents feed on that.

• "Don't play for the side pockets."

Jim Rempe told me that many people play for the sides just because the ball is closer to that pocket, but early in the game or when position really matters it's better to play for the corners. If you're an inch out of line for the corners it's not such a big deal. An inch out of line for the side is death.

• "When you're a little off straight on a draw shot, but you want to draw straight back, add a little inside spin."

I learned this from straight pool guru Jose Garcia, and I use it all the time. That's all I have to say about that.

•"Don't play position if you already have position."

This one came from Buddy Hall via a friend of mine. If a stop shot leaves you right on the next ball, don't go 3 rails trying to get a little closer. Just make the ball.
• "When your cue ball is against the rail, shorten your backswing to an inch or less."

I learned this one from mechanics guru Jerry Breisath. Shooting table length shots from frozen to the back rail is my specialty. The short backswing is the key.

• "You still have control of the table."

George "Ginky" SanSouci used to say this all the time when we practiced. If I hooked myself while running out he would remind me that instead of getting mad or having a pity party I should come up with a solution. It's still my turn at the table, and I need to make the most of it.

• "Play your percentages."

From my mentor, Stu Mattana. This is one of the best things that I learned from him. In a nutshell, know your strengths and weaknesses so you can know what shots to go for and when to play safe. Going for hero shots is usually a losing cause.
 
You take a line through the object ball (using your cue) pointing in the direction that you want the cue ball to stop.

Then when shooting, you aim at that point that exits the object ball with high center and the cue ball will follow that path.

Shallower angles work better for "safety spots" closer to the object ball.

Wider angles, it's harder to control the speed of the cue ball.
I think I don't understand how this can work. If you were to want to take the cue ball perpendicular to its original path (a right-angle turn) this system says to point your cue stick at the edge of the object ball, which is the same as a half-ball hit. But a rolling half-ball hit is going to be more like 37 degrees of deflection and not 90.

As for the OP, there is a fairly simple system for rolling cue ball angles for all thicknesses of hit. I'll see if I can find a simple illustration.
 
... As for the OP, there is a fairly simple system for rolling cue ball angles for all thicknesses of hit. I'll see if I can find a simple illustration.
The article I was thinking of was in the December 1998 Billiards Digest. See http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1998.pdf -- last article

The diagram there is not so clear, so here is a better one:
CropperCapture[73].png
This will calculate the follow angle for any rolling-ball cut shot. Draw (in your mind) the kiss line, imagine the straight-on ball, and then the equal ball on the other side of the cue ball on the line parallel to the kiss line. Then find the 3X ball -- the five balls along that line are equally spaced. You can then sight from the 3X ball through the ghost ball to find the path of the rolling cue ball.

This system works for all fullnesses of hit, but if the hit is nearly full, it's easier to calculate a different system: if the object ball cuts 1 degree to the left of the line of your cue stick, the cue ball will go 3 degrees to the right. This system only works for small cut angles.

Another way to calculate the shot show above is to not do the extra balls but instead drop a perpendicular from the cue ball to the kiss line and then take a spot on that line in the ratio of 1:3 along its length. This is more compact than the other construction. It gives exactly the same answer but will be easier or harder to use in different situations.

If the balls are sitting so the lines are other than parallel to the cushions, the system is a little harder to use because the perpendiculars and parallels are not so obvious, but the system is the same.
 
carom diagram.jpg

A few years ago, I described this method that I came up with. As pointed out then, I'm not the first to figure it out, but here it is:

1. Draw a line from the ob center you want to carom to, to the ob you are going to carom off of.
2. Draw a line from the pocket you want to make the ob in through the ob.
3. Remember those two points.

Now, with ball in hand, how to place the cb to make the ob and carom into the second ob.
1. You want to line up a line from the center of the cb to where the line from the carom ball comes into the back of the ob you are going to make.
2. You also want to line up the line from the ob to be made to the cb so that you have an equal/opposite overlap on both balls with the line.
3. When you position the cb to where you have both 1 and 2, just use a medium follow shot, and you will make the ob and carom into the second ob.

This works great for the wagon wheel drill. Now, if you aren't concerned about making the first ob, only concerned with placement of the cb after contact with the ob, all you have to do is aim the center of the cb to the line that comes into the back of the ob you are caroming off of from the spot you want the cb to go to.

This system is not "set in stone", but is a very useful aid. I have made carom shots on the money ball numerous times using it. Certain angles, which I feel are rather obvious, it will not work on. You can only get the cb to go so far over on a follow shot. Then you have to use a combination of stun-follow.

I have also found this system very useful for safety play.
 
I think I don't understand how this can work. If you were to want to take the cue ball perpendicular to its original path (a right-angle turn) this system says to point your cue stick at the edge of the object ball, which is the same as a half-ball hit. But a rolling half-ball hit is going to be more like 37 degrees of deflection and not 90.

As for the OP, there is a fairly simple system for rolling cue ball angles for all thicknesses of hit. I'll see if I can find a simple illustration.

This is what I was talking about. Maybe I wasn't real clear.

Path of Rolling Cue Ball After Hit – Shawn Putnam
This is a system to predict the direction the cue ball will go on a rather full hit (about ¾ ball or fuller) after rolling into the object ball with follow. To send the cue ball in a particular direction, visualize the spot on the far side of the object ball that points to where you want the cue ball to go and then aim the cue ball to that point on the far side of the object ball.
 
I think I don't understand how this can work. If you were to want to take the cue ball perpendicular to its original path (a right-angle turn) this system says to point your cue stick at the edge of the object ball, which is the same as a half-ball hit. But a rolling half-ball hit is going to be more like 37 degrees of deflection and not 90.

As for the OP, there is a fairly simple system for rolling cue ball angles for all thicknesses of hit. I'll see if I can find a simple illustration.


It does work when within 4 degrees or straight on...
 
This is what I was talking about. Maybe I wasn't real clear.

Yes, it comes close for nearly full hits, but I think that for such hits it's much easier to use the 1:3 angle system I described above. Also I think it doesn't work well without corrections for a second ball that is close because the path of the cue ball is offset from the line you have drawn to the object ball. What you are interested in is the path of the cue ball which starts from the ghost ball.

A little back-of-the-printout analysis says that for small angles the "point on the back of the object ball" system is like the system I diagrammed above except that instead of the 3X ball it would use the unmarked "2X" ball. I think that means the cue ball will tend to miss wide for small angles and as mentioned above it will miss narrow for large angles. I think it's better to use a system that gives reasonable answers for all angles.
 
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