Ronnie Alcano, Francisco Bustamante or Dennis Orcollo? Who's better?

Corey got to see the old man still has it 1st hand when they played their big action One Pocket match earlier this year in New Orleans :yeah:

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Alex thinks the world of Bustie...their COVID time at Ray Hansen’s place did them both
a lot of good.....
...but Alex doesn’t think much of his cooking skills...they had to call the Fire people...

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Naturally, Francisco charmed the firemen...they had to have their picture with him.
 
Alex thinks the world of Bustie...their COVID time at Ray Hansen’s place did them both
a lot of good.....
...but Alex doesn’t think much of his cooking skills...they had to call the Fire people...

View attachment 551460

Naturally, Francisco charmed the firemen...they had to have their picture with him.

Those matches Bustamante and Alex played at Ray's place in Texas were a hell of a show.

Both the All-Around & the One Pocket match were amazing great matches.

Even though there was not that much money on the line, the pride and respect they have for each other really showed.

They both played like there was 100k riding on the match :clapping:

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That's an endless argument but I will say when Orcollo beat Frost out of a significant amount of cash that was the best one pocket I've seen anybody play.

Frost was in over his head and he knew it.
 
Jay Helfert has lived in the Philippines and knows the pool scene there first-hand shared some valuable information about the relative rankings of players there ...

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=6616562&postcount=32

The current consensus in the Philippines is that Efren and Busti are “only” Tier Two players now. Blows your mind in light of how Bustamante matched up with Alex Pagulayan and Tony Chohan since the shutdown.

It seems to me that the Fargo threshold for Tier One is a minimum of 800 ... meaning that SVB might be the only American who is a shoe-in for that tier. Tier Two is marginally less (say 775+) and Tier Three includes a lot of unknown killers whose Fargo ratings might be 750 on up.

There were something like ten players in the Philippines with established Fargo ratings over 800 the last time I checked.
 
Jay Helfert has lived in the Philippines and knows the pool scene there first-hand shared some valuable information about the relative rankings of players there ...

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=6616562&postcount=32

The current consensus in the Philippines is that Efren and Busti are “only” Tier Two players now. Blows your mind in light of how Bustamante matched up with Alex Pagulayan and Tony Chohan since the shutdown.

It seems to me that the Fargo threshold for Tier One is a minimum of 800 ... meaning that SVB might be the only American who is a shoe-in for that tier. Tier Two is marginally less (say 775+) and Tier Three includes a lot of unknown killers whose Fargo ratings might be 750 on up.

There were something like ten players in the Philippines with established Fargo ratings over 800 the last time I checked.
Yeah, I was looking out for Jay’s response to this thread. Like you said, Jay’s Pinoy pecking order is explained in depth in the link you provided, which I recall reading at the time - thanks
 
bustie is an artist, dennis is a surgeon, ronnie is a nutjob.

ronnie's burst of brilliance was marvellous but i doubt we will see anything like that from him again
 
There's a kid in the Philippines that I think is better than any of them. He looks like he's fifteen. His name is Anton Raga, and if you haven't seen him play, he's on several You Tube videos.
Raga is a freak. He plays stupidly good. I've watched some of streamed money matches and he is a beast. No emotion, just gets it done. BTW, he is No.6 Fargo (821) right now.
 
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Wow....the list is heating up....28 players in the 800s...9 are Pinoys.
Alex is only 17 points off Shane at # 1....puts him in 16 th place.
 
Jay Helfert has lived in the Philippines and knows the pool scene there first-hand shared some valuable information about the relative rankings of players there ...

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=6616562&postcount=32

The current consensus in the Philippines is that Efren and Busti are “only” Tier Two players now. Blows your mind in light of how Bustamante matched up with Alex Pagulayan and Tony Chohan since the shutdown.

It seems to me that the Fargo threshold for Tier One is a minimum of 800 ... meaning that SVB might be the only American who is a shoe-in for that tier. Tier Two is marginally less (say 775+) and Tier Three includes a lot of unknown killers whose Fargo ratings might be 750 on up.

There were something like ten players in the Philippines with established Fargo ratings over 800 the last time I checked.
Maybe bustamante’s 9 and 10 ball game has dropped off but it seems his one pocket skills haven’t diminished much if at all
 
I will try to respond to the OP as best I can. No question that Francisco has had a long and illustrious career and well deserved inclusion in the HOF. He could win major tournaments and big money games with equal skill. He was not known as a top One Pocket or Bank Pool player but he was also high level at both these games. He made his living at 9-Ball and Ten Ball so that was where his focus was. He had little interest in 14.1 as there was no money for him there. A testament to his longevity is how well he still plays in his mid 50's, far ahead of Earl by comparison.

Dennis is very comparable to Francisco in that he is a threat to win any tournament and can take down the money as well. He may play better under pressure than any other Pinoy besides Alex, who is also a great pressure player. Dennis mastered all pool games and that makes him stand out from all the rest. Dennis should be headed for the HOF some day himself. He is still fifteen years younger than Francisco. I would rate these two as just about even overall.

Ronnie was one of the top tier Pinoy players for several years but fell off the map after being involved in a couple of well known scandals in the Philippines, which I chose not to discuss on here. He also managed to get himself in hot water over here with his billiard related activities. So much so he was not welcome at many tournaments and he chose to not to come here for years. He made some bad choices and it unquestionably had a residual effect on his pool game. He is still a tier two player there, but barely. There is a whole slew of young guns that would gladly take him on.
 
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Maybe bustamante’s 9 and 10 ball game has dropped off but it seems his one pocket skills haven’t diminished much if at all

I think it’s normal for a great player in his 50s to devote more time to one pocket.
..hanging around with Alex helps a lot...Alex says they’re learning from each other...
...Bustie has his own way of doing somethings and Alex is sharp enough to learn.

I think Bustie was the best 9 and 10 ball player in the Phlippines for a long time.....
..till Robocop came of age.
...he could get out from anywhere, and unlike Efren, he had a devastating break.
He willingly played second fiddle to his friend Efren.
...this is only my opinion
 
Raga is a freak. He plays stupidly good. I've watched some of streamed money matches and he is a beast. No emotion, just gets it done. BTW, he is No.6 Fargo (821) right now.

In 9 ball or 10 ball that's true but until I see otherwise I'd take Efren, Bustamante and Orcollo all over Raga in one pocket.
 
Beat me twice!

I think it’s normal for a great player in his 50s to devote more time to one pocket.
..hanging around with Alex helps a lot...Alex says they’re learning from each other...
...Bustie has his own way of doing somethings and Alex is sharp enough to learn.

I think Bustie was the best 9 and 10 ball player in the Phlippines for a long time.....
..till Robocop came of age.
...he could get out from anywhere, and unlike Efren, he had a devastating break.
He willingly played second fiddle to his friend Efren.
...this is only my opinion


Your first post covered much of what I thought and I too was thinking that Busty might not have chased Efren quite as hard as he could have sometimes. Too much friendship and respect. Seemed like if Efren was looking likely to win an event he was content with second. Not to say that he deliberately laid down, just didn't have quite the same fire playing Efren.

I could have beaten all three in my prime though, Busty was in diapers and the rest weren't born yet!

Saw Parica around town some, weren't many looking to play with him. The stout local players sat down like puppy dogs for the most part. He mostly had to play small to medium stakes waiting for the traveling salesmen to pass through. Parica showed the way for the Filipino invasion. We might have never seen Efren or the other great Fillipino players without Jose.

I still remember a skinny longhaired kid when I think of Busty. He could shoot behind his back more comfortably than perhaps anybody male, or female that wasn't a dancer!

Speaking directly to the comparison that started the thread. Ronnie went up like a bottle rocket and back down just about as fast. He had his moment when he could beat anyone in the world, but it was a short period. Whatever the reasons he settled into stout second tier. Dennis can still have a ways to go and few if any are tossing big bundles of their own money on the light to play him. Dennis over Ronnie, on present record, Busty over Dennis. Based on a long track record, and based on my suspicion that his record could have been a little bit better if he hadn't been Efren's pal all these years.

I used to play the ponies a bit, made money at it. With cheap races it was just a matter of betting class. I loved to watch graded stakes races but with the horse with a 98 speed rating being the dog of the field I left my money in my pocket! I'd do the same with these guys. Over a long course I might bet, given day, I'll keep my money in my pocket!

Hu
 
Your first post covered much of what I thought and I too was thinking that Busty might not have chased Efren quite as hard as he could have sometimes. Too much friendship and respect. Seemed like if Efren was looking likely to win an event he was content with second. Not to say that he deliberately laid down, just didn't have quite the same fire playing Efren.

(I could have beaten all three in my prime though, Busty was in diapers and the rest weren't born yet! )


That was good...:grin:
Saw Parica around town some, weren't many looking to play with him. The stout local players sat down like puppy dogs for the most part. He mostly had to play small to medium stakes waiting for the traveling salesmen to pass through. Parica showed the way for the Filipino invasion. We might have never seen Efren or the other great Fillipino players without Jose.


I still remember a skinny longhaired kid when I think of Busty. He could shoot behind his back more comfortably than perhaps anybody male, or female that wasn't a dancer!

Speaking directly to the comparison that started the thread. Ronnie went up like a bottle rocket and back down just about as fast. He had his moment when he could beat anyone in the world, but it was a short period. Whatever the reasons he settled into stout second tier. Dennis can still have a ways to go and few if any are tossing big bundles of their own money on the light to play him. Dennis over Ronnie, on present record, Busty over Dennis. Based on a long track record, and based on my suspicion that his record could have been a little bit better if he hadn't been Efren's pal all these years.

I used to play the ponies a bit, made money at it. With cheap races it was just a matter of betting class. I loved to watch graded stakes races but with the horse with a 98 speed rating being the dog of the field I left my money in my pocket! I'd do the same with these guys. Over a long course I might bet, given day, I'll keep my money in my pocket!

Hu

I had some talent with horses when I was young....harness horses.
A wealthy horse owner was shipping me to Ohio to train under Bob Brown..had a 25
horse stable waiting for me in six months...the paper work on the working visa took too long..
..got into pool and snooker instead.
A working visa made me eligible for the draft..could’ve ended up in ‘Nam...i would’ve went.

I don’t drink beer, Hu...but we could have some good conversations if you didn’t mind
me drinking 47,000 black coffees.
 
with chicory

I had some talent with horses when I was young....harness horses.
A wealthy horse owner was shipping me to Ohio to train under Bob Brown..had a 25
horse stable waiting for me in six months...the paper work on the working visa took too long..
..got into pool and snooker instead.
A working visa made me eligible for the draft..could’ve ended up in ‘Nam...i would’ve went.

I don’t drink beer, Hu...but we could have some good conversations if you didn’t mind
me drinking 47,000 black coffees.



I'm with you, black coffee, dark roast with chicory. I got hurt and didn't have to worry about the draft but I too had to make the decision before I got hurt. It was obvious the war was horse crap by then but I would have served my country regardless. Hurt a lot of idealistic chicks feelings telling them Canada wasn't in my plans! Missed out on a little tail but there was plenty more out there.

The horses get in your blood. Never fooled with trotters in my part of the world but running horses, cutting horses, working cow horses, no shortage of those. I had a half dozen or so horses and a few foals running around long ago. It was cheaper to raise children!

To get back to the thread a little bit, should be entertaining when some of the young guns in the Philippines come this way. I'll be in the peanut gallery!

Hu
 
I'm with you, black coffee, dark roast with chicory. I got hurt and didn't have to worry about the draft but I too had to make the decision before I got hurt. It was obvious the war was horse crap by then but I would have served my country regardless. Hurt a lot of idealistic chicks feelings telling them Canada wasn't in my plans! Missed out on a little tail but there was plenty more out there.

The horses get in your blood. Never fooled with trotters in my part of the world but running horses, cutting horses, working cow horses, no shortage of those. I had a half dozen or so horses and a few foals running around long ago. It was cheaper to raise children!

To get back to the thread a little bit, should be entertaining when some of the young guns in the Philippines come this way. I'll be in the peanut gallery!

Hu

You can spend a lifetime studying the horses and stay broke or.....you can get wised up by a real wise guy, and that's what happened to me. I had a buddy from the poolroom who went to the track every day and drove a nice caddy and lived in a penthouse apartment in Hollywood.

He told me to ignore the racing form and just buy a program that has the horses starting odds listed. Then stay close to the betting window and watch the tote board. If you see any horse that starts out as a long shot (say 6-1 or more) and suddenly the odds drop rapidly before the horses are set to go (say from 10-1 to 3-1 or 4-1) bet on that horse if you can get to the window in time. It will only happen in a couple of races each day but that is the time to pounce. I used this technique a few times and positioned myself close to the large wager window ($100 or more) at Hollywood Park. I would then bet the horse across the board, usually 100 or 200 each way (win, place and show). Some days I sat out there all afternoon and nothing happened and some days it only came up once all day. But when it did - BINGO!

I made a few decent scores (1K or more), but I got bored with all the time spent at the track when I could be playing pool, so I went less and less over time. So for all my AZ buddies, remember this little lesson about the track and you might just have a good day or two. :thumbup:
 
bigger tracks

You can spend a lifetime studying the horses and stay broke or.....you can get wised up by a real wise guy, and that's what happened to me. I had a buddy from the poolroom who went to the track every day and drove a nice caddy and lived in a penthouse apartment in Hollywood.

He told me to ignore the racing form and just buy a program that has the horses starting odds listed. Then stay close to the betting window and watch the tote board. If you see any horse that starts out as a long shot (say 6-1 or more) and suddenly the odds drop rapidly before the horses are set to go (say from 10-1 to 3-1 or 4-1) bet on that horse if you can get to the window in time. It will only happen in a couple of races each day but that is the time to pounce. I used this technique a few times and positioned myself close to the large wager window ($100 or more) at Hollywood Park. I would then bet the horse across the board, usually 100 or 200 each way (win, place and show). Some days I sat out there all afternoon and nothing happened and some days it only came up once all day. But when it did - BINGO!

I made a few decent scores (1K or more), but I got bored with all the time spent at the track when I could be playing pool, so I went less and less over time. So for all my AZ buddies, remember this little lesson about the track and you might just have a good day or two. :thumbup:


There are always people trying that same thing. It works pretty well at bigger tracks. The problem with smaller tracks is an optimistic owner can crash the odds on one horse. A few like you and your buddy jump in and the horse looks great!

I combined the information I could get, basically just crunched the numbers, and combined that with the trainer and jockey. Then I looked at the horse. Didn't help much if you weren't familiar with the horse but looking at the horse can be a pretty big tell. I am in the black on horses but I never really had the gambling bug. I knew jockeys and trainers that were deep in the hole betting. If they couldn't win, how the heck are the rest of us supposed to?

It used to be the stewards would look away one cheap race of the day and the jockeys would push a long shot to the front. That was their eating money, every jockey's wife had a little, just twenty dollars or so, on that boat race.

One trainer liked how a shadow roll across the nose of a horse looked in the victory circle pictures. If you didn't see a shadow roll on one of his horse's nose you knew the race was just a conditioner, he didn't expect to win and wasn't trying to. Might even instruct the jockey to pull the horse or block him in if he was running too good.

One trainer had his road money horse. He owned the moderately priced claimer himself and he would run it now and then during a meet getting the odds right then turn it loose within a week of the end of the meet. A good bet on that horse paid his moving expenses from track to track. He pissed off another trainer, I forget how at the moment. The last race before the trainer would have turned the horse loose, the other trainer claimed it!

The shenanigans at a pool room don't hold a candle to what goes on at the track. The cheap track in New Orleans was Jefferson Downs. I used to laugh just focusing on the infield right past the finish line and watching the nine volt batteries fly! I would have hated to mow that grass. I bought a little stud too old to run in the Louisiana bred races but I did win nine in a row with him at the match track. Good times, crazy times.

Hu
 
I was looking at some photo's & when i saw this one, it made me think about this thread
:)

Francisco Bustamante, Ronato Ronnie Alcano, Alex Pagulayan, Dennis Orcollo and Jose Parica..jpg
 
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