Ronnie gets booted from Pechauer tourney?

You raise an excellent question. As many people as this Room Owner has 86'd (including Bryce Avila), he only allowed Ronnie to stay simply for the potential MONEY it might have brought the Room.

In a previous post I told a story about this Room Owner over-riding my decision during a 1-Pocket tournament. (http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showpost.php?p=33396&postcount=7) While my decision was correct, I was over-ridden in an attempt to keep the MONEY coming into the room. Every player knows the TD's decision is FINAL and it needs to be that way.

Troy
Banker Burt said:
The thing that bothers me about this unfortunate incident, is if all that has been posted is true, and if he was so far out of line, why then was he allow to play some kid at the tournament room (after he was disqualified), if in fact he was so biligerent
The moral might be, shouldn't TD's and roomowners make these types of decisions together? Ronnie paid his entry just like all the other players. California billiards is a great, well run establishment, but it seems (just maybe) that the new school took a stand against the old school, and as Josh Palmer mentioned -Ronnie didn't really seem to care either.
 
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I saw Bryce Avila in Seattle a few weeks ago when I was up there for work. He came into Dr. Cues and sat at the rail BSing with some people. Watched my friend and I shoot for a bit and then we took off.
 
The True Story On Ronnie Allen

I was not going to post on this subject but since there is so much inuendo and speculation as to what happened I will attempt to relay the whole story then all of you may make your judgments based on the facts.

Yes Ronnie was drinking, we all know that is true but if there is anybody in this world than can handle that it is him. His drinking had nothing to do with this, it had to do with an overzealous tournament director that according to a lot of people was on a power binge which is really no offense to her as sometimes as a t.d. you need to be strong. A lot of people believe she overreacted but it also is like she was setup and forced to make a decision that when Chet Ito the owner of the room found out about was not too happy. The whole problem started when the tournament started over an hour late and after Ronnie played and won two matches hIe tried to get a reasonable time when he would play again so he could leave the premises without a forfeit and obtain some medication and probably a shot before his next match. He is diabetic and has liver problems. He takes about 5 different pills. Well he could not get permission to leave so he whinned but stayed until he next match but that got him off on the wrong foot with Carissa. When is next match started it just happened his opponent was the road partner of Danny Medina, someone from Denver who Ronnie knew. The whole problem started when for no reason basically Danny went to the front desk and started to try to complain to the desk person about Ronnie pulling moves. The desk man said , hey thats not what i am here for go complain to the tournament director,so he did and that was Carissa. He told her to watch Ronnie cause he was pulling moves. I dont know what he was talking about except he did not always sit between shots but remember he is diabetic and I never saw his opponent complain once. Diabetics legs and feet can numb up and the circulation is bad so standing sometimes is better.
The point is his opponent never complained. Then the cue ball incident came up and he asked for a new cue ball, like someone else said, big deal, but he was refused even though his sober opponent agreed it was not rolling properly,so this dispute went on for 10 or 15 minutes for no reason. Carissa refused to provide another ball for some reason. Steve Lingblach was playing on the neighboring table and never intervened and he is one of the main Pechauer reps and editor of the on the wire newspaper. Finally Chet gets wind of the problem and simply walks over with a new cue ball, gives it to Ronnie and that was that, the match continued.
A moment later Ronnie complained about no bridge at the table, so he was like over acting because he could not get a cue ball and then a bridge so it looked like he was upset but he was doing his usual thing. Then when he screwed up the shot he swept the balls, one fell of the table, and of course that forfeited the game so Carissa was upset with that but again I say not his opponent. Now Ronnie is losing 8-6 but he has ball in hand after the break but he asks his opponent if he can go to the rest room. He asked because he had already gone once. Rember now he is diabetic and a heavy drinker so his opponent said sure go ahead. Well when Ronnie came back
Carissa disqualified him. That is when he insulted her because he thought he was being disqualified for breaking the rules and when he asked her what he was suppose to do, she told him to just hold it. Wow. Then he asked her if he should just pull it out and go on the floor then get arrested. She told him to hold it. He told her to (and he makes a gesture) why dont you just hold this. Or something like that. So he probably at that point was upset but as I was watching the whole thing he never raised his voice or went beserk. He just walked away. He was not even informed he was out of the tournament. Although he was not going to play again other people had to inform him he had forfetied his next match also. It would have been a good one, Rafael Martinez but as fans we missed it because I really believe Carissa over reacted only because there was never a dispute between the players or a complaint from a player only inuendo from a champion who does not like Ronnie and thought he might be moving on his partner. If the opponent does not complain the t.d. should not be involved that much. A few minutes later George Michaels and Mark Hadad got into a major arguement about a shot and that was disturbing a lot more people then Ronnie. And that was on the neighboring table also. Nobody said a word to them.
Ronnie went about his business and never ever got out of line the rest of the night and like a previous poster said he got a match later and played without incident and went to the bathroom several times and played a great one handed game to the delight of the audience and came out 200 ahead.
Lets hear it for the old school.

By the way he scored 1300 the next night as Fast Eddys in a one pocket game.
 
Oldtimer

onepocket said:
about time someone put a pro in there place good job by director
It was not a good job by the tournament director. As I heard it, she had a short fuse. The road partner of Ronnie's opponent complained to the tournament director, which put the wheels in motion. The most colorful & entertaining player in the tourney got booted out because of an uptight person & he should have been given more consideration. I agree with a previous post that we oldtimers grew up in a different era when there was more barking and gamesmanship, but pool was certainly more entertaining. There is a line that shouldn't be crossed, where a player should be disqualified, but that wasn't the case here. This is pool, not the center court of Wimbleton. Let the characters be characters, and love them or hate them, they are a needed part of the game. JR Hendy
 
Thanks for the true story nfty9er.

nfty9er said:
I was not going to post on this subject but since there is so much inuendo and speculation as to what happened I will attempt to relay the whole story then all of you may make your judgments based on the facts.

Yes Ronnie was drinking, we all know that is true but if there is anybody in this world than can handle that it is him. His drinking had nothing to do with this, it had to do with an overzealous tournament director that according to a lot of people was on a power binge which is really no offense to her as sometimes as a t.d. you need to be strong. A lot of people believe she overreacted but it also is like she was setup and forced to make a decision that when Chet Ito the owner of the room found out about was not too happy. The whole problem started when the tournament started over an hour late and after Ronnie played and won two matches hIe tried to get a reasonable time when he would play again so he could leave the premises without a forfeit and obtain some medication and probably a shot before his next match. He is diabetic and has liver problems. He takes about 5 different pills. Well he could not get permission to leave so he whinned but stayed until he next match but that got him off on the wrong foot with Carissa. When is next match started it just happened his opponent was the road partner of Danny Medina, someone from Denver who Ronnie knew. The whole problem started when for no reason basically Danny went to the front desk and started to try to complain to the desk person about Ronnie pulling moves. The desk man said , hey thats not what i am here for go complain to the tournament director,so he did and that was Carissa. He told her to watch Ronnie cause he was pulling moves. I dont know what he was talking about except he did not always sit between shots but remember he is diabetic and I never saw his opponent complain once. Diabetics legs and feet can numb up and the circulation is bad so standing sometimes is better.
The point is his opponent never complained. Then the cue ball incident came up and he asked for a new cue ball, like someone else said, big deal, but he was refused even though his sober opponent agreed it was not rolling properly,so this dispute went on for 10 or 15 minutes for no reason. Carissa refused to provide another ball for some reason. Steve Lingblach was playing on the neighboring table and never intervened and he is one of the main Pechauer reps and editor of the on the wire newspaper. Finally Chet gets wind of the problem and simply walks over with a new cue ball, gives it to Ronnie and that was that, the match continued.
A moment later Ronnie complained about no bridge at the table, so he was like over acting because he could not get a cue ball and then a bridge so it looked like he was upset but he was doing his usual thing. Then when he screwed up the shot he swept the balls, one fell of the table, and of course that forfeited the game so Carissa was upset with that but again I say not his opponent. Now Ronnie is losing 8-6 but he has ball in hand after the break but he asks his opponent if he can go to the rest room. He asked because he had already gone once. Rember now he is diabetic and a heavy drinker so his opponent said sure go ahead. Well when Ronnie came back
Carissa disqualified him. That is when he insulted her because he thought he was being disqualified for breaking the rules and when he asked her what he was suppose to do, she told him to just hold it. Wow. Then he asked her if he should just pull it out and go on the floor then get arrested. She told him to hold it. He told her to (and he makes a gesture) why dont you just hold this. Or something like that. So he probably at that point was upset but as I was watching the whole thing he never raised his voice or went beserk. He just walked away. He was not even informed he was out of the tournament. Although he was not going to play again other people had to inform him he had forfetied his next match also. It would have been a good one, Rafael Martinez but as fans we missed it because I really believe Carissa over reacted only because there was never a dispute between the players or a complaint from a player only inuendo from a champion who does not like Ronnie and thought he might be moving on his partner. If the opponent does not complain the t.d. should not be involved that much. A few minutes later George Michaels and Mark Hadad got into a major arguement about a shot and that was disturbing a lot more people then Ronnie. And that was on the neighboring table also. Nobody said a word to them.
Ronnie went about his business and never ever got out of line the rest of the night and like a previous poster said he got a match later and played without incident and went to the bathroom several times and played a great one handed game to the delight of the audience and came out 200 ahead.
Lets hear it for the old school.

By the way he scored 1300 the next night as Fast Eddys in a one pocket game.

Like you nfty9er, I was not going to post on this one. After all, I have been beating a dead horse trying to get these kiddies to respect older world champions such as Ronnie, the real "Fast Eddie" Allen.

It is obvious to the sighted that Ronnie did nothing wrong, or his opponent would have said something. He did not. The first thing the TD should have done was ask Ronnie's opponent if there was a problem. She did not. She may be a class lady and a fine tournament director but in this case she is wrong.

Like jrhendy said: It was not a good job by the tournament director. As I heard it, she had a short fuse. The road partner of Ronnie's opponent complained to the tournament director, which put the wheels in motion. The most colorful & entertaining player in the tourney got booted out because of an uptight person & he should have been given more consideration.

The only thing I disagree with in jr's statement is that Ronnie doesn't deserve any "more consideration" than any other player. He deserves the SAME consideration and he didn't receive it.

Ronnie Allen is the greatest one pocket player of all time, as well as the greatest one handed player of all time. He belongs in the HOF. He has a right to be angry at the children running the BCA and if he has an "attitude", he earned that right. In this case, it appears his "Attitude" had nothing to do with the treatment he got. Even with Earls "attitude", if he said the cue ball was out of round, a normal TD would provide him with another. I too am diabetic and every word said in prior posts about the problems associated with the desease is true. Patience is a virtue. It should be utilized more often.
 
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The True Story of Ronnie Allen being Booted

Like nfty9er, I was at California Billiards the day of the Pechauer Tour. There were many great players in attendance, including Ronnie Allen. As said earlier, he tried to take an earlier break but was denied by the TD. She had already prejudged him prior to this match.

Other than the cue ball and lack of bridges at the table, the match went smoothly. Ronnie and his opponent had no disputes regarding the tournament. Ronnie was down 6 - 8 when he took a bathroom break. When he returned, the TD told him he was being disqualified from the tournament. I later found out that Danny Medina went to the TD and told her that Ronnie was pulling a "fast one" on his opponent. Nothing could be further than the truth. Like anyone, Ronnie was upset over the decision, but packed up his cue and left the table.

I guess I can't understand why the TD had to interfere. The players were playing the tournament and had no disputes over the match or each other. It is a shame that the match was decided by someone who was not playing in the tournament. If that was her function, where was she when Mark Haddad and George Michaels had a loud verbal confronation where half the room could hear.

Ronnie later told me that he knew he couldn't win against this field, but entered to support the game. It's a shame that the game didn't support him.
 
TD and Players

|First|
If I were the owner, I would have been upset and had some strong words with both parties.

|Second|
Ronnie has had enough tournament experience that he knows what he can and can't get away with.

|Third|
As far as the TD, well, I just met her last saturday, and I am sure as young as she is, she still has some things to learn. Handling Ronnie may be one of the toughest trials she has had.

|Fourth|
I would suspect that most of us would have only DQ'd Ronnie as a last resort. Maybe she did? I sure would like to hear her side of this story.

|Fifth|
Health reasons are very personal. How Ronnie wants to handle them is his business. I've never heard him use any of this as an excuse for playing bad. Ronnie has played in quite a few Hard Times monthly events in the last 6 months and has never had a problem.

|Lastly|
And, as far as having to take bathroom breaks.. more than 1 per match, that's between the players. But what do you expect when you drink 2 or 3 beers an hour? How long can you hold it?
 
Sounds like RA weathered the storm. ;)
 

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Tom I noticed that you are having Scott Smith as a new TD. I know Jay Helfert originally did it. Aggresive behavior has always been my worry when I attend with my family after I saw a fight at Hard Times Sacramento right in the tournament room. This was during the one pocket event of the Jamboree about 2 years ago. Two sweaters who had a bet started fighting during the tournament. Actually one of the guys started swinging a house cue. Security came in but these 2 individuals were never banned or kicked out. It was if it never happened. I hope Scott and management will be more vigilant in this area.

Happily Ive seen Ronnie there many times and even though he was loud he was always entertaining.

Tom In Cincy said:
|First|
If I were the owner, I would have been upset and had some strong words with both parties.

|Second|
Ronnie has had enough tournament experience that he knows what he can and can't get away with.

|Third|
As far as the TD, well, I just met her last saturday, and I am sure as young as she is, she still has some things to learn. Handling Ronnie may be one of the toughest trials she has had.

|Fourth|
I would suspect that most of us would have only DQ'd Ronnie as a last resort. Maybe she did? I sure would like to hear her side of this story.

|Fifth|
Health reasons are very personal. How Ronnie wants to handle them is his business. I've never heard him use any of this as an excuse for playing bad. Ronnie has played in quite a few Hard Times monthly events in the last 6 months and has never had a problem.

|Lastly|
And, as far as having to take bathroom breaks.. more than 1 per match, that's between the players. But what do you expect when you drink 2 or 3 beers an hour? How long can you hold it?
 
More old school stuff...

First off, Tom in Cincy was not the TD a couple of years ago when the fight broke out. We have not had a single problem whatsoever since Tom has taken over; and I play in most of the open tournament. Thanks Tom.

I will also defend the room owner in that there are always 4-8 security employees when the crowds get large. Even the incident mentioned was handled very quickly by security.
I've been to this room plenty, and know for a fact there is a waiting list of 20+ by 10 pm ever weekend night. They have even had waiting lists on Saturday & Sunday afternoons, because the tournament player tournouts take 10-16 table on the weekends.
(How about a cheer for the room owners that give us their equipment to use, so that we can play tournaments?)

The point to me now is more about old school & new school, and how do we draw some lines. The old school was raised in a different time than now. The new school didn't experience that time, only hearing stories about it from the old school players. This is pure entertainment (might I add some wisdom), whether it be Ronnie, Kieth, Grady, Earl, or any one of these hundreds of wonderful characters in our country, then just for a second... think about how little they have to say that is good about the new school?

I mean let's face it, the top fifty billiard players in the world make less than the top fifty bowlers. No offense to bowling as a sport, it is actually offensive to billiards, where the bowling industry is just simply more organized than the billiard industry. And let's not talk about or compare ourselves to golf...
baby steps, baby steps...

Some of this just doesn't make sense, though. The big question to me is the BBIA - Bowling Billiard Institute of America. Any thoughts? Maybe we should all be writing them as much as we write on this forum?

Hey look. The old school is the old school, and the new school is the new school, so how about finding some common gound?

PS I agree with Tom in Cincy, where it would seem fair to hear Carissa's side of the story (you out there...?), draw a conclusion, and then move on with a lesson learned for both the old and the new.
 
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Im not clear about your theory of old school vs new school. With all respect I dont think you are either. I dont need to defend myself when it comes to giving props to HT in Sac. I have always thought this is one of the finest places and tournaments out west. And I have said so many times.

The fact is this post was about RA getting booted. But the violence and disruption that has happened with my experience is not by the old guys but the young guys from the "new" school as well. Violence should never be allowed and any owner should be criticized if he allows it. These 2 guys because they were regulars were allowed to sit in the tournament area and continue side betting. I said Jay Helfert was the TD not Tom. Read the post before you make critical remarks. I said with the new TD-Scott Smith-I hope their will be a stronger response to violence. As a paying customer I can request it.
 
yobagua said:
Im not clear about your theory of old school vs new school. With all respect I dont think you are either. I dont need to defend myself when it comes to giving props to HT in Sac. I have always thought this is one of the finest places and tournaments out west. And I have said so many times.

The fact is this post was about RA getting booted. But the violence and disruption that has happened with my experience is not by the old guys but the young guys from the "new" school as well. Violence should never be allowed and any owner should be criticized if he allows it. These 2 guys because they were regulars were allowed to sit in the tournament area and continue side betting. I said Jay Helfert was the TD not Tom. Read the post before you make critical remarks. I said with the new TD-Scott Smith-I hope their will be a stronger response to violence. As a paying customer I can request it.

He knows that YO. His bias towards RA is blatantly obvious. I'm sure 65 year old former champions are more likely to start violence than his regular kiddies,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,RRRRRRRiiiiiiiggggggggghhhhht.
 
jrhendy said:
Let the characters be characters, and love them or hate them, they are a needed part of the game. JR Hendy

Reading this post has me thinking about this old school vs. new school thing, and the characters. Where would pool be today without the characters we had 20 years ago and some we still have today. I keep thinking how they are continually changing things. Some I agree with, others I don't.

I guess it's a good thing I'm not a Pro. I just don't think I could deal with the new school. Like for example I understand that in some big tournament I couldn't wear my hat while I play. Heck, I really don't know if I could make a shot without my hat on. If I was a Pro I'd need the brim of my hat to block the view and keep me from getting distracted by the short skirts sitting in the second row of the bleachers.

Then there is my gestures. One reason I might not be a Pro is the revenge the cue ball takes on me for all the times I've given it the finger. Or when I back up to the pocket I just missed and make a farting sound. (gets a little chuckle out of the crowd every time) (I'm going to get one of those pocket fart machines one of these days)

Character, yes, I've been told I am one. It's a big part of my game enjoyments. No! it's not to try to shark anyone, it's just to have fun. If me having fun sharks you, that's just too bad.

CaptJR
 
yobagua,

Your concerns are valid. I, too, am a family man and I would never intentionally put my family in a situation that might become violent. You have to do what you have to do.

Scott Smith will be the tournament director, not security. Hard Times will be responsible for that.

The only reason Scott is the TD for this event is because of the EAST Coast Pros that will be more comfortable attending because of this well known and trusted TD.

This, in no way, is saying anything negative about Jay Helfert. Jay has been doing Jamborees for a long time and has his new room and his tournaments to run.

yobagua said:
Tom I noticed that you are having Scott Smith as a new TD. I know Jay Helfert originally did it. Aggresive behavior has always been my worry when I attend with my family after I saw a fight at Hard Times Sacramento right in the tournament room. This was during the one pocket event of the Jamboree about 2 years ago. Two sweaters who had a bet started fighting during the tournament. Actually one of the guys started swinging a house cue. Security came in but these 2 individuals were never banned or kicked out. It was if it never happened. I hope Scott and management will be more vigilant in this area.

Happily Ive seen Ronnie there many times and even though he was loud he was always entertaining.
 
Banker Burt,

Thanks for the feedback. I have to admit, there have been problems since I started. But, I chose to handle them very discretley. Only the players involved know about this. I don't make it a big production.

The last thing I want as a player or TD is to be distracted by a 'scene' during a tournament. 99 times out of 100, the players know who is wrong and who is right in any situation. Usually the only thing that is a problem is letting that person that is 'wrong'.... 'blow off some steam'....

On a postive note; 99% of the players I have had the pleasure of meeting in these tournaments are all very good people. These are the players that I run the tournament for. 75% of the field doesn't get paid. These are the most import part of any tournament. They have just as much rights as the other 25% that do get paid. They are the players that support the tournament and make it successful. If they feel there is bias or favortism, they just won't play.

"Old School versus New" I'd like to see a new thread on this..


Banker Burt said:
More old school stuff...

First off, Tom in Cincy was not the TD a couple of years ago when the fight broke out. We have not had a single problem whatsoever since Tom has taken over; and I play in most of the open tournament. Thanks Tom.
 
Tom
Jay is an old friend and I have a lot of respect for him for what he has done for the game. In fact I knew him when he was Toupee Jay. I just meant a changeing of the guard might prove interesting.

I appreciate your words about the other 75% of players that dont come in the money. You have a great bunch of characters that I find just as interesting as the stars. Guys like Steve L, Kris Iverson, School Teacher Bart, etc. Through the years I have come to know their play and really find them to be a credit to the sport.

I will be there!
 
Old School-New School

Who can say when the old school ended & the new school began. Since I'm in my mid 60's and have been playing for 50+ years, I'll always be old school. I believe the new school started with Texas Express, and here on the west coast, the USPPA handicap system. We had very few tournaments in the 60's & 70's. I used to drive up from LA 25 years ago to play in the tournaments at the Jointed Cue in Sacramento. For $30 or $40 you got to mix it up in a short race with some of the best players in the country. The tournament was, and still is, one of the premiere tournaments in the country. Always around a 100 players, an absolute madhouse in an honest to goodness old time poolroom. It comes around again this Saturday, 3/20, & I will be there. The only other tournament I play in any more is the one pocket tournament at Hard Times in Sacramento. Both places have tournament rooms and great equipment. Now back to new school - with the USPPA & other Texas Express tournaments going on, you could play in a dozen or more tournaments a month. Now that the new players were learning to play in tournaments and not by gambling, the old way was dying out. Tournaments, as they should, have rules, and not much room for gamesmanship and hustling. Back to old school - I started going down to Hollywood & Western & 4th & Main in LA in the mid to late 50's. Players would bark & insult each other for hours sometimes before a game was made. I used to get beat, get dumped, get double steered and any other thing it took to get my money. It was an education and I learned how to play pool. When I say pool, I mean anything on a pool. snooker or billiard table. Now I'm just another old guy who can't play anymore but still trys.
 
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