Ronnie O'Sullivan--Greatest cue genius?
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well id say both in their own respected disciplines but the thing about snooker is the frame/rack isnt over after 9-10 pocketed balls it goes on until the player passes the required amount of points leaving his opponent needing more than 4-5 snookers and misses or until all the balls are pocketed so the "zone" lasts allot longer like in straight pool and watching ronnie in the zone is a beautiful thing nothing like it he is just a genius and most naturally talented snooker player ever.
so basically my vote goes to ronnie just cause i watched him play allot more since im in europe and we have snooker on tv all the time.too bad people in the usa are not exposed to snooker in that way its the best game ever.made me start playing pool/snooker
so basically my vote goes to ronnie just cause i watched him play allot more since im in europe and we have snooker on tv all the time.too bad people in the usa are not exposed to snooker in that way its the best game ever.made me start playing pool/snooker
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No question Ronnie is probably the best snooker player, in my opinion. I've seen him play (on TV, Internet) many times and am in awe sometimes of what he can achieve.
But I do think Efren is a better cueing artist, because he is great across so many different disciplines (8, 9, 10 ball, One Pocket, Straight Pool, 3 Cushion, Rotation, etc), and he's kept his game at an extremely high level for decades.
Also, with Ronnie, his mental toughness is sometimes questionable. I've seen him concede a snooker match (early on in the match), after dogging an easy shot. You never see Efren give up, ever (at least I never have).
Two cents...
But I do think Efren is a better cueing artist, because he is great across so many different disciplines (8, 9, 10 ball, One Pocket, Straight Pool, 3 Cushion, Rotation, etc), and he's kept his game at an extremely high level for decades.
Also, with Ronnie, his mental toughness is sometimes questionable. I've seen him concede a snooker match (early on in the match), after dogging an easy shot. You never see Efren give up, ever (at least I never have).
Two cents...
Ronnie acknowledges Efren
During the IPT (the big one, where Efren beat Rodney Morris for the $500,000 first prize), Ronnie acknowledged Efren as being better all around, and even predicted Efren would win it, very early on. (As we now know, Ronnie was spot on.)
Here's the interview:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GZ4nyIdWbrM
One thing about Ronnie, is that he recognizes great cuemanship no matter what the game -- no snobby "those pockets are buckets and how can a snooker player not wipe the floor with all pool players" remarks as is typical from the die-hard snooker camp.
EDIT: P.S.: both Ronnie and Efren are my two personal favorite cueists, and Dick Jaspers is high on that list as well.
-Sean
During the IPT (the big one, where Efren beat Rodney Morris for the $500,000 first prize), Ronnie acknowledged Efren as being better all around, and even predicted Efren would win it, very early on. (As we now know, Ronnie was spot on.)
Here's the interview:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GZ4nyIdWbrM
One thing about Ronnie, is that he recognizes great cuemanship no matter what the game -- no snobby "those pockets are buckets and how can a snooker player not wipe the floor with all pool players" remarks as is typical from the die-hard snooker camp.
EDIT: P.S.: both Ronnie and Efren are my two personal favorite cueists, and Dick Jaspers is high on that list as well.
-Sean
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I think Ronnie may have more overall ability, but Efren has the stronger mental game.
I think it's interesting that Ronnie acknowledges that there's a specific skill-set that the English players are lacking involving certain creative/aggressive shots that involve pocket-cheating, since they're shots that aren't available on English pool or snooker tables, and that this in fact gives players who are used to the 9' "American" table an advantage over the English 8-ball players.
Anyway, Ronnie does not acknowledge in this interview that Efren is a better overall cue artist than himself; he acknowledges that Efren is a better 8-ball player, which is not really under debate.
It's difficult to compare Efren and Ronnie, or Blohmdahl or Ceulemans or Jaspers for that matter, because although the games all require striking a ball with a cue, the skill-sets are very different. Can you compare the best rugby players in the world with Peyton Manning or Adrian Peterson or Terrell Owens? Some people probably do like to argue over such things, but I don't really think they can be compared.
All I can really say is I'm certain Efren in his prime could torture Ronnie playing 9-ball or 10-ball or 8-ball or 14.1 or rotation or 3C, and that Ronnie could torture Efren playing Snooker or English billiards, or probably any pool game if you played it with snooker-sized balls on a snooker table.
-Andrew
To make a valid argument you have to look at how Ronnie and Efren have changed the way their respected disciplines are played. Efren is credited with bringing the kick safe into prominence and his patterns are just on a different plane. His ability to read the table, come up with a different approach and have the skills to execute is what sets him apart. This is very evident when he plays rotation and one pocket. Could the same be argued for O'sullivan playing snooker?
Greatest cue genius ever? IMHO, Answer:
Walter Lindrum
Walter Lindrum
Ronnie without a doubt. I've honestly never seen anyone close to him. I think Ronnie is a better overall cueist also. Ronnie is not only a world champion snooker player but he has twice finished second in the world pool masters! I don't know of any pool player that has come close to finishing well in any cue discipline besides pool. Efren is a great pool player but wouldn't stand a chance against the top players in snooker or billiards. I know everyone likes to think Efren is a top billiards player but the truth is he would get beat by amateurs in 3c and balkline billiards.
I would say Blomdahl is probably the next best all around cueist after Ronnie.
I would say Blomdahl is probably the next best all around cueist after Ronnie.
I sincerely doubt it. I've seen (actually played myself with) Efrin play snooker and he is not even at par with the amateur snooker players, let alone the top professionals. Snooker is a whole "devil" in itself when it comes to any billiard games. Have witnessed many snooker players win world pool open championships, such as Allison Fisher and Karen Corr to name a few (and I'm sure there are males too) but have yet to witness one single pool player come even close to winning any snooker tournaments. Notice that almost all snooker players roughly carry similar stance and stroke, very much unlike pool players.
1. Mastering different pool/billiard games all played on the same size table with the same size/weight balls does not count as mastering different cue sports in my book. The best at any one particular pool game played with standard sized equipment has the ability to be amongst the best at any other pool game played on the same standard sized table, for them it's just a question of desire and practice. To be a genuine total all round cue genius you surely have to master different cue sports which use different sized tables with different sized balls, different rule concepts etc etc.
2. IMHO the most obvious 4 categories for any prospective ultimate all round greatest cue genius to master are snooker, 3 cushion, american pool (ie any of them, 8 ball straight pool or any rotation game) and english 8 ball.....all different tables, different balls, different pocket sizes/styles, different rules. There has been no-one yet who has been world champion class at all 4. There are several past and current players who have been world champion class at 2. I think 3 is possible and 4 is highly unlikely.
3. Unfortunately for a variety of reasons it's exceptionally unlikely that any player of any kind of american pool will ever be able to progress from pool to being a world champion class snooker player, it would almost certainly have to be done the other way round (if even that is possible). Apart from any other reasons there is almost zero chance of anyone taking up snooker for the first time over the age of 15 and becoming world champion class.
4. Re an earlier comment....of course Efren is mentally tougher than Ronnie O'Sullivan. O'Sullivan's brain circuits are not wired up right. O'Sullivan could never be an all round master of all cue sports, he would never have the personal application to get the job done outside snooker. However there's little doubt he's the most naturally gifted snooker player who ever lived. Pity he seems to combine that with being one of the biggest knobheads who ever won the World Championship.
2. IMHO the most obvious 4 categories for any prospective ultimate all round greatest cue genius to master are snooker, 3 cushion, american pool (ie any of them, 8 ball straight pool or any rotation game) and english 8 ball.....all different tables, different balls, different pocket sizes/styles, different rules. There has been no-one yet who has been world champion class at all 4. There are several past and current players who have been world champion class at 2. I think 3 is possible and 4 is highly unlikely.
3. Unfortunately for a variety of reasons it's exceptionally unlikely that any player of any kind of american pool will ever be able to progress from pool to being a world champion class snooker player, it would almost certainly have to be done the other way round (if even that is possible). Apart from any other reasons there is almost zero chance of anyone taking up snooker for the first time over the age of 15 and becoming world champion class.
4. Re an earlier comment....of course Efren is mentally tougher than Ronnie O'Sullivan. O'Sullivan's brain circuits are not wired up right. O'Sullivan could never be an all round master of all cue sports, he would never have the personal application to get the job done outside snooker. However there's little doubt he's the most naturally gifted snooker player who ever lived. Pity he seems to combine that with being one of the biggest knobheads who ever won the World Championship.
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Any links to his 9th 147?
I read your post perfectly well, hence the quote, in which you alleged that you were certain that Efrin will torture Ronnie in pool games to which I responded by saying that "I sincerely doubt it". The rest of it was my opinionated deliberations to that effect.
To be fair to pool, 9 ball is a fairly shallow game. It doesn't require the level of knowledge, strategy and skill that 14.1, 1 pocket and Rotation do. All snooker players that have done well in the past have been competing in 9 ball and 10 ball, I don't think any of them have won or finished high in any other discipline.
Ronnie may only play snooker, but the game requires the pattern recognition and cluster management of 14.1, the safety play and strategy of 1 pocket and the cue ball control and shot making of 9 ball.
Ronnie's contribution to the game has been his break building, opening up the pack of reds and playing position on something. He really disects the rack better than anyone. He may not have been the first but he's certainly perfected it. In the 80's players would clear off all the reds, and then carom into pack off the black and pray.
Ronnie may only play snooker, but the game requires the pattern recognition and cluster management of 14.1, the safety play and strategy of 1 pocket and the cue ball control and shot making of 9 ball.
Ronnie's contribution to the game has been his break building, opening up the pack of reds and playing position on something. He really disects the rack better than anyone. He may not have been the first but he's certainly perfected it. In the 80's players would clear off all the reds, and then carom into pack off the black and pray.