Rule on miscuing.... I had to withdraw from a tournament

C

Camelot

Banned
Here is the situation....

The 9-ball is nearly frozen to the endrail, and the cueball is nearly frozen to the 9-ball.

I announce to the referee that I am going to miscue, and barely hit the cueball, but enough to make the 9-ball hit the rail. I wipe the chalk off the tip, and then make the shot. It was a legal hit. I hit the cueball only once, and the 9-ball hit the rail.

The ref then starts going through the rulebook for about 15 minutes. He then says that my shot was unsportsmanlike conduct, and that my opponent would get ball in hand.

I shook my opponent's hand and withdrew from the tournament.

Several people have told me that I cannot vocally announce that I am going to miscue on purpose, but I don't believe the rule.

What do you think?
 
I think you should have come up with a more standard shot. When you try something like that people will raise a stink.
 
not a miscue

Camelot said:
Here is the situation....

The 9-ball is nearly frozen to the endrail, and the cueball is nearly frozen to the 9-ball.

I announce to the referee that I am going to miscue, and barely hit the cueball, but enough to make the 9-ball hit the rail. I wipe the chalk off the tip, and then make the shot. It was a legal hit. I hit the cueball only once, and the 9-ball hit the rail.

The ref then starts going through the rulebook for about 15 minutes. He then says that my shot was unsportsmanlike conduct, and that my opponent would get ball in hand.

I shook my opponent's hand and withdrew from the tournament.

Several people have told me that I cannot vocally announce that I am going to miscue on purpose, but I don't believe the rule.

What do you think?
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I wouldn't really call that a miscue if you made the shot I'm thinking about. You are using the very edge of the tip to hit with but as long as the ferrule doesn't hit the cue ball it should be a legal hit. In no way shape or form can I see a legal shot as unsportsmanlike conduct. There are dozens of shots that very few people know how to execute. Using one is not unsportsmanlike conduct.

The one area I'm not familiar with is announcing in advance you intended to miscue. If you set up basically 90 degrees to the angle you drove the cue ball I wouldn't call that a miscue though.

Hu
 
I think it was a poor decision to withdrawal from the tournament.

Why was it considered unsportsmanlike conduct, if you hit the ball legally?
 
evanlockhart said:
I think it was a poor decision to withdrawal from the tournament.

Why was it considered unsportsmanlike conduct, if you hit the ball legally?
Click to expand...

Apparently it was decided that if you announce that you are going to intentionally miscue, then it is a foul.

But if you miscue accidentally, it is not a foul.

This is what a few people have said, but I don't believe the rule.
 
ShootingArts said:
I wouldn't really call that a miscue if you made the shot I'm thinking about. You are using the very edge of the tip to hit with but as long as the ferrule doesn't hit the cue ball it should be a legal hit. In no way shape or form can I see a legal shot as unsportsmanlike conduct. There are dozens of shots that very few people know how to execute. Using one is not unsportsmanlike conduct.

The one area I'm not familiar with is announcing in advance you intended to miscue. If you set up basically 90 degrees to the angle you drove the cue ball I wouldn't call that a miscue though.

Hu
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The shot I'm referring to is on Bert Kinister's $100 tape. The balls were laying exactly like he shows in his video. So maybe someone here knows that shot.
 
I have read in rulebooks that an intentional miscue is illegal. Did you read the passage he read? How can you disagree with his ruling if it says you can't intentionally miscue?

Do you just feel that the rule shouldn't be in the rule book?
 
Luxury said:
I have read in rulebooks that an intentional miscue is illegal. Did you read the passage he read? How can you disagree with his ruling if it says you can't intentionally miscue?

Do you just feel that the rule shouldn't be in the rule book?
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No, it should definitely not be in the rulebook, if it is in the book at all.

I didn't hang around to actually read the book.
 
Yes

Camelot said:
The shot I'm referring to is on Bert Kinister's $100 tape. The balls were laying exactly like he shows in his video. So maybe someone here knows that shot.
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Exactly what I was thinking. I think I am in that video. I was in another one too. I did not make a ball.
 
Does anybody have a link to the rule in question ??

Also, I do not believe using "Extreme English" is a foul but there are several factors that do need to be looked at as they could come into question during the shot. But if it is a simple straight forward rule I would like to see it. I also believe that the player should not have announced there intentions B4 hand and just simply shot the shot and let the ref decide from the actual shot.

Now we get to you withdrawing out of the event. Of course it is your choice but IMO that is unsportsmanlike. Honestly, in other sports you don't see players or teams withdrawing from an event because a ref made a bad call. Heck, if that was the norm there would never be a completed baseball or football game on TV ever!
 
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that isn't a miscue in my opinion

Camelot said:
The shot I'm referring to is on Bert Kinister's $100 tape. The balls were laying exactly like he shows in his video. So maybe someone here knows that shot.
Click to expand...

Exactly the shot I was thinking about. That isn't a miscue in my opinion. You are using an area of the cue tip that isn't usually used to hit with but there is no unplanned slippage or the tip glancing off of the cue ball. The important thing is to not let the ferrule or shaft contact the cue ball. You could grab a house cue off the wall with a little bit of mushroom on the tip to remove all doubt concerning the ferrule and shaft.

I think it is a mistake to call the shot a miscue when announcing it, a mistake to penalize somebody using the shot too.

Hu
 
No doubt the referee read this from the WPA rules of play:

Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.


The unsportsmanlike conduct section is here:

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp?id=121&pagetype=rules#6.16

You made a mistake by announcing that you intended to miscue. The referee could do no other than charge you for the offense with the punishment he deemed appropriate, which wasn't that severe. You shouldn't have withdrawn.
 
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Camelot said:
Several people have told me that I cannot vocally announce that I am going to miscue on purpose, but I don't believe the rule.

What do you think?
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Foul.


Section 7.7 of the General Rules - Intentional Miscues are a Foul.

Someone grab an up-to-date rulebook and confirm please.

Freddie
 
Cornerman said:
Foul.


Section 7.7 of the General Rules - Intentional Miscues are a Foul.

Someone grab an up-to-date rulebook and confirm please.

Freddie
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But the question still remains... Did he miscue or did he just think he was going to miscue and what exactly is the definition of a miscue? Maybe he just used "EXTREME SIDE-SPIN" and did not in fact Miscue.

SO, what exactly is the definition of a miscue?

mis·cue (ms-ky)
n.
1. Games A stroke in billiards that misses or just brushes the ball because of a slip of the cue.
2. A mistake.

I think it is important to make sure this grouping of words is looked ad while figuring out exectly what a miscue is " brushes the ball because of a slip of the cue."
 
Camelot said:
The shot I'm referring to is on Bert Kinister's $100 tape. The balls were laying exactly like he shows in his video. So maybe someone here knows that shot.
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Bert Kinister doesn't know the rules, evidently. It's unfortunate that he makes tapes like that which confuse beginning players.

There are several situations in which you can do some remarkable shots by intentionally miscuing, but it's not the way pool is played -- at least according to the rules.
 
If you kill someone the difference between manslaughter and murder charge is intent.

As others pointed out, based on what you said to the referee, the referee had no choice but to perceive your motive to intentionally miscue and had no choice but to call for a foul. At that point, whether you pull off the shot was immaterial.

I think your bigger mistake was that because you disagreed with the referee, rather than abide the rules and contest the decision, you decided to withdrew.
 
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Meh, it's not really a 'miscue' if the ball did what you were intending it to do. By definition a miscue is when you strike the ball in a way other than you intended. Just because you knew that by scrubbing your tip, then hitting the far edge you would make a legal hit with both balls basically touching eachother (without hitting the ball with your ferrule, double hitting or making contact with the object ball with your cue) doesn't mean you should be penalized for it. You dug your grave when your ego got involved and you opened your mouth about your shot AND your reaction to their reaction.

Live and learn. Next time just shrug and go sit back down and let the opponent deal with the next shot, instead of the rule book.
 
Do not believe everything that you see on a video. Read the rules and know them yourself.

You obviously broke the current WPA Unsportsmanlike Conduct rule. The penalty that the referee imposed was about the mildest he could do. He could have ejected you from the tournament.

By telling the referee before the shot you were going to intentionally miscue, you were announcing your ignorance of the rules. He had no choice at that point.

If I was a referee and I saw a player wipe the chalk from his tip and line up to obviously miscue on purpose, I would call this even if he did not announce his intention.

Your withdrawal from the tournament because you were caught in a rules violation can only be described as childish. I doubt anyone missed you.
 
lastminutepanic said:
... By definition a miscue is when you strike the ball in a way other than you intended. ...
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That's not true according to the rules. Here they are: http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play

It's surprising how many players -- even world champions -- haven't actually read the rules. If you are a beginning player, reading them is an easy way to get an immediate advantage.
 
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