Rule on miscuing.... I had to withdraw from a tournament

[SpiderWebComm]

Well, no. In the case of a shot at pool, "forward" means motion along the axis of the cue stick towards the cue ball. This clarification may be missing from the rules, but it is certainly what was intended.

That makes sense then, I agree.

 

[dr_dave]

There are several situations in which you can do some remarkable shots by intentionally miscuing, but it's not the way pool is played -- at least according to the rules.

Here's a classic example, where "intent" is unclear, but where a double-hit (i.e., foul) is obvious with the miscue:

HSV B.28 - frozen-ball kiss, miscue, and push shots and fouls​

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

IF you hit the CB once and only once, and did so only with the leather tip and not with the ferrule - then it is NOT a miscue.

.... but most miscues do involve double (or more) hits.

However, an unintentional miscue is not considered a foul unless a double hit is obvious. For more information, examples, and demonstrations, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/fouls.html#miscue​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Lock N Load]

No doubt the referee read this from the WPA rules of play:

Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.


The unsportsmanlike conduct section is here:

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp?id=121&pagetype=rules#6.16

You made a mistake by announcing that you intended to miscue. The referee could do no other than charge you for the offense with the punishment he deemed appropriate, which wasn't that severe. You shouldn't have withdrawn.

Very good! And to the exact point!
Regards,
Lock N Load.

 

[TX Poolnut]

Here's a classic example, where "intent" is unclear, but where a double-hit (i.e., foul) is obvious with the miscue:

HSV B.28 - frozen-ball kiss, miscue, and push shots and fouls​

Regards,
Dave

appreciate the link. i always learn when you post.

 

[dr_dave]

thank you dr dave!

You're welcome!

I aim to squerve,
Dave

 

[Camelot]

I still don't understand how it is legal to miscue accidentally, but it's illegal to miscue on purpose.

 

[dr_dave]

I still don't understand how it is legal to miscue accidentally, but it's illegal to miscue on purpose.

Check out the explanations and videos here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/fouls.html#miscue​

I've changed my mind on this topic in the past. I used to think that all miscues should be fouls because most of them involve double hits (and because they are the result of player error or inappropriate play).

Now I agree with the current intent of the rules ... don't penalize an accidental miscue. The result of an accidental miscue is usually penalty enough anyway.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

The most common intentional use of the miscue is in the type of jump shot played by beginners.

As I'm sure you know, not all "scoop" jump shots are miscues. Here's an example:

HSV B.2 - Illegal "scoop" jump shots​

It is a kind of disallowed manipulation of the balls -- it is not an accepted part of the game.

Agreed. Even if a scoop shot can be executed without a miscue or double hit, it is still not an "appropriate" shot, and should probably remain as a foul when intentional, as with miscues.

Regards,
Dave

 

[CubaElFlaco]

Whoever put that rule in the book should pull their own head off.

It's a legal shot. The tip hit the ball and didn't double hit. Case closed.

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

Whoever put that rule in the book should pull their own head off.

It's a legal shot. The tip hit the ball and didn't double hit. Case closed.

That the player (op) announced that he was going to miscue, then did, demonstrated it was intentional.

An intentional miscue is considered unsportsmanlike, according to the rules, and is a foul.

Best,
Brian kc

 

[Hungarian]

Here is the situation....

The 9-ball is nearly frozen to the endrail, and the cueball is nearly frozen to the 9-ball.

I announce to the referee that I am going to miscue, and barely hit the cueball, but enough to make the 9-ball hit the rail. I wipe the chalk off the tip, and then make the shot. It was a legal hit. I hit the cueball only once, and the 9-ball hit the rail.

The ref then starts going through the rulebook for about 15 minutes. He then says that my shot was unsportsmanlike conduct, and that my opponent would get ball in hand.

I shook my opponent's hand and withdrew from the tournament.

Several people have told me that I cannot vocally announce that I am going to miscue on purpose, but I don't believe the rule.

What do you think?

Hey there Camel,

It sounds like you are upset. This must be a very serious tourney. What's the entry fee? If I would guess you have been snapping this thing off on a regular basis. So they must be looking for a reason to stick it in you. Hang in there pal.

The Nut

 

[Hungarian]

That the player (op) announced that he was going to miscue, then did, demonstrated it was intentional.

An intentional miscue is considered unsportsmanlike, according to the rules, and is a foul.

Best,
Brian kc

My question is why would you announce it? That's not how you make a move. i.e., Hey Bill, Johnny would bust Ron but Ron doesn't know. Let's double steer Ron so that he will go off and we can make our rent this month. Ron will loose a couple dimes. Ok, sounds good. So at this point, for your move to be effective, you don't go and tell Ron that hey can't beat Johnny.

Glad to help,
The Nut

 

[master9baller]

Foul

I was at this tournament and I knew Camelot was in trouble when he announced his intention to miscue. After pulling the rule book and looking for about 5 minutes the ref submitted his ruling "intentional foul". What else could he do?

The only advice I would give is to take a break before quitting the tournament. As I recall it was 6 to 5 with your opponent leading to 7. That is something you certainly could have come back from.

Either way you learned some things about yourself and the game. I would suggest devising a few ways to handle this shot if it should come up again. It's an opportunity to grow a little.

 

[ShootingArts]

was it a miscue?

The interesting thing is that few definitions and few people seeing such a shot would describe it as a miscue. The cue ball doesn't glance off of the tip as described, there is no sound of a miscue, and there is no mark on the tip from a miscue.

Were I to decide to use this shot I wouldn't call it a miscue and I wouldn't clean the chalk off of my tip as that isn't needed. Simply shoot the shot. The tip indeed only brushes the cue ball. However this is true in some other legal shots also so why should it be illegal if the cue is horizontal?

Another question, by a strict reading of Bob Jewett's definition of a miscue, aren't jump shots miscues most of the time? The cue tip does often glance off of the cue ball in these shots. Many, probably most, jump shots are impossible without the cue tip glancing off the cue ball or a double hit.

A tangled web we weave when we try to read too much into the rules.

The cue tip passes behind the cue ball at a right angle in the shot discussed in this thread.It can also stop at the centerline of the cue ball. I have played with the shot in practice long ago, may have used it in play I don't remember. If I ever need it I will use it and will have to defend the use of it if need be. It isn't a miscue by any normal understanding of the term.

Hu