Rule on miscuing.... I had to withdraw from a tournament

Ok, so it's a rule, albeit a sillly one -and certainly not unsportsmanlike conduct.

What is your personal opinion in this situation Bob? Do you feel the shot was unsportsmanlike and why?
 
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Bob Jewett said:
And I'm certain that they did. See: http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp?id=124&pagetype=archived_news_details&newsid=68

And if anyone here thinks a rule is badly worded or just plain wrong, he should get his suggestion to his national pool federation so that the change can be considered for the next revision of the rules which should occur in January, 2013. Of course the draft version of that revision has to be completed in 2012.
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Clear cut rules are the best rules. Take out words like "intentional," "accidental," and make everything black and white.

If you do ____, ____ is the resulting penalty.
 
I told the ref before the shot because I wanted him to have a clear understanding of what I was going to do. He only gets one chance to look at it, so I wanted to give him every opportunity to see what was happening.

And because in general miscuing is not a foul, it did not even cross my mind that telling him I was going to miscue would be a foul.

No I haven't read the rulebook, and I don't agree with the rule.
 
I am curious

camelot said:
i told the ref before the shot because i wanted him to have a clear understanding of what i was going to do. He only gets one chance to look at it, so i wanted to give him every opportunity to see what was happening.

And because in general miscuing is not a foul, it did not even cross my mind that telling him i was going to miscue would be a foul.

No i haven't read the rulebook, and i don't agree with the rule.
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why did you quit the tournament?

SLIM
 
Here's another thing to consider:

If I didn't tell the ref beforehand, I still intended to miscue. So would it be a foul then?
 
No one will ever know

camelot said:
here's another thing to consider:

If i didn't tell the ref beforehand, i still intended to miscue. So would it be a foul then?
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just in case you missed my post.

Why did you quit the tournament?

SLIM
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Clear cut rules are the best rules. Take out words like "intentional," "accidental," and make everything black and white.

If you do ____, ____ is the resulting penalty.
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Dave:

For the most part, I agree. There's a LOT of wording in the WPA rules that I'm not fond of. (Hey, you know me -- part of doing I.T. Security in front of executive-level officers in board rooms is being able to clearly communicate ideas and findings without any kind of ambiguity -- and this carries over when I read pool materials.)

However, there comes a time also, when it's not a good idea to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For instance, simply deleting the word "intentional" from the miscue rule will make *all miscues* exploitable/punishable for "unsportsmanlike conduct." Even innocent miscues, like when a player is attempting to load-up with a lot of follow or draw, and then you hear the unmistakable <ponk!> or <clink!> sound of a miscue, but makes a legal hit on the object ball with subsequent rail contact. Is that unsportsmanlike conduct (or even a foul, for that matter)? I don't think so, but simple removal of the word "intentional" would definitely open the door for abuse of the rule, since it's now in "black and white" that "miscues are unsportsmanlike conduct."

If we come up with wording for that rule, it should be obvious that miscues attempted in "touch" safeties (not an actual shot where the player is trying to pocket a ball, or other shot that requires a normal stroke) should be the ones marked for possible unsportsmanlike conduct. At least this way, you limit the window for exploitation of the rule, and you give some power back to the referee to use good judgment.

We like to bemoan that there are not enough referees in our sport, but even when we are lucky to have one, we shouldn't cripple his/her abilities to use the old noggin'.

IMHO, anyway,
-Sean
 
SLIM said:
why would something so small take the wind out of your sails?

SLIM
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I've never claimed to have the greatest determination. When I saw the shot come up I was amazed. And then I happened to hit it just perfect. He couldn't send the cueball to the end rail, so I was the favorite to win the game from that point.

Looking back I shouldn't have withdrawn, but I tend to get really angry when I play.
 
Camelot said:
Here is the situation....

The 9-ball is nearly frozen to the endrail, and the cueball is nearly frozen to the 9-ball.

I announce to the referee that I am going to miscue, and barely hit the cueball, but enough to make the 9-ball hit the rail. I wipe the chalk off the tip, and then make the shot. It was a legal hit. I hit the cueball only once, and the 9-ball hit the rail.

The ref then starts going through the rulebook for about 15 minutes. He then says that my shot was unsportsmanlike conduct, and that my opponent would get ball in hand.

I shook my opponent's hand and withdrew from the tournament.

Several people have told me that I cannot vocally announce that I am going to miscue on purpose, but I don't believe the rule.

What do you think?
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My take on all this is number one, you shouldn't have said anything to the ref, just gone ahead and shot. You put him on alert, if you get my drift. Second, why withdraw if a call doesn't go your way. Every pool player has had calls made against them that they didn't agree with. They didn't quit though.
 
Camelot said:
I've never claimed to have the greatest determination. When I saw the shot come up I was amazed. And then I happened to hit it just perfect. He couldn't send the cueball to the end rail, so I was the favorite to win the game from that point.

Looking back I shouldn't have withdrawn, but I tend to get really angry when I play.
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Seems to me that if you realize that you get angry when you play, you handled this one well. Or at least better than it could have turned out... That's something.

Hopefully next time you'll know not to tip your hand, and also you'll handle your emotions better so as to not lose out on your tournement time.
 
Camelot said:
Here's another thing to consider:

If I didn't tell the ref beforehand, I still intended to miscue. So would it be a foul then?
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Yes. If I were refereeing your match, I personally would've called a foul on you. Because in that situation, basically a "touch"-type of safety, there's no reason to miscue, even though it can be said that you "made contact with the [side of] the tip of the cue with the cue ball."

The shot you were attempting is possible to do without miscueing. Watch how Niels Feijen handled it in the 2007 Derby City Classic 9-ball Finals:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZSOOGM2XmWk#t=630

A controversial shot even in this match, yes, but it was handled a *LOT* better than an obvious miscue. (The word "obvious" is used even if you didn't announce it, because a miscue in this situation is plainly obviously intentional.)

-Sean
 
jay helfert said:
My take on all this is number one, you shouldn't have said anything to the ref, just gone ahead and shot. You put him on alert, if you get my drift. Second, why withdraw if a call doesn't go your way. Every pool player has had calls made against them that they didn't agree with. They didn't quit though.
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I'm working on that. I get mad very easily when I play.
 
sfleinen said:
Yes. If I were refereeing your match, I personally would've called a foul on you. Because in that situation, basically a "touch"-type of safety, there's no reason to miscue, even though it can be said that you "made contact with the [side of] the tip of the cue with the cue ball."

The shot you were attempting is possible to do without miscueing. Watch how Niels Feijen handled it in the 2007 Derby City Classic 9-ball Finals:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZSOOGM2XmWk#t=630

A controversial shot even in this match, yes, but it was handled a *LOT* better than an obvious miscue. (The word "obvious" is used even if you didn't announce it, because a miscue in this situation is plainly obviously intentional.)

-Sean
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It's funny you bring this up because Niels received lessons from Bert Kinister, who I learned this shot from.
 
Maybe you did the correct thing by dropping out

hopefully you can get a handle on your temper.

Enjoy the game,

SLIM
 
Fouette shot to avoid double-hit foul when cue ball and object ball are very close

Camelot said:
It's funny you bring this up because Niels received lessons from Bert Kinister, who I learned this shot from.
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But the difference is that Niels did it *without* miscueing. It's a variation of a shot that Bob Jewett describes and demonstrates in one of his videos -- a fouette shot:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-52.htm

-Sean
 
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