Rules & Etiquette in Competition

Actually, I think Jim has forced me to give a bottom-line. The point I'm making is that it's important to protect yourself when you are in competition. To act formally. Now, many can interpret that to mean any one of a number of things but the bottom line is, don't do anything that can cost you the game outside of missing the shot. There are a lot of ways to interpret this. In this instance, I was referring to a person who could have been called for practicing while a match was in session. The actual ruling doesn't matter. The referee wasn't asked for a ruling. However, the offending player had no clue whether or not a ruling would have been made. He acted outside of what is prudent.

I know we like to hypothesize about how a referee would treat the situation but the fact is, that doesn't really matter. Your etiquette objective in a tournament isn't to do everything you can get away with but to avoid having a referee make a ruling against you.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
The details have eluded my memory. Not surprising, too. You guys are a riot almost every week!
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Let's just say the match started with me flipping the coin and asking him to call it. He catches the coin and says (in his accent), "No, we do like this. You tails, Me heads!" and reflips the coin.

At that very moment, I knew I was in trouble. There was more to the story as well.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
So last night was the league finals at my home room and during one of the final games of match, I saw something that I thought was inexcuseable. One of the players was safed and as he approached the table, he stepped up to the adjacent table and playfully shot the cueball into the pocket.

Now, just to make things clear, this was NOT the match table but the table nearby. There was nothing to suggest the shot served any purpose than to simply clear the table and it could only be viewed as a casual silly act. However, I thought it was inexcuseable because it could have been ruled a foul or even worse, a loss of game for practicing while a match was in session.

My point (I hope he reads this) is that you must always protect yourself during competition. Of course, there will be the occasional lapses in concentration but you can't compound that with casual etiquette. It will only get you in trouble. Always try to adhere to the below list. Anyone wishing to add to it, feel free.

1. Sit in your chair and remain still until it's your turn to shoot.
2. Get out of your opponent's way BEFORE he asks
3. Don't reach for your water when your opponent is down on a shot.
4. Always take a bathroom/smoke break when it is your turn at the table.
5. Always verify ball-in-hand.
6. Get acknowledgement from your opponent when announcing a call (pushing, safeties, unusual shots)
7. Turn your cellphone off


The important thing here is, don't be casual about etiquette. Competition is always formal and you owe it to yourself, your teammates and your friends to let your game be the determinant and nothing else.
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Jude it really astonishes me how many good players resort to those actions
especially practicing on a neighboring table.
 
philw said:
Jude it really astonishes me how many good players resort to those actions
especially practicing on a neighboring table.
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No, I don't want to make it sound worse than it was. It was simply a silly thing, nothing more. It was no different than shoving the ball in the pocket. The point is that it wasn't prudent. However, I do agree with you, I have seen players practice on neighboring tables which I find astounding.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Okay, I called it inexcuseable because you leave yourself vulnerable to getting a foul called on you- not because I think it should be called a foul. Honestly, I don't know what the official rule is. I see it as something you should not be doing. This isn't really about pet peaves but a little more yet not necessarily written rule, either. A pet peave, imo, would be like leaving the bridge on the floor or the chalk face down. This is more about behavior that could potentially shape the outcome of a match.


If I were the opponent, would I have called a foul? The most truthful answer I can give is probably not. I'm sure there are a few exceptions but that would be for personal reasons.
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I see where you are coming from Jude. Good stuff and wise of you to bring up the issue.

I was just saying that permissiveness such as you would/did demonstrate works very much against the adoption of your excellent points of view.

It is specifically a foul to practice during a match under the Unsportsmanlike Conduct rule.

If that rule is going to be overlooked along with others you brought up which are often overlooked then that contributes to a habit pattern that ENCOURAGES the violation of the very rules and practices that you took issue with in your post.

That was my only point...But you ducked!! (-:

"PS: If that incident would have made the difference between your team qualifying for Vegas or not...would you have called the foul?"

If you were a ref or a team captain...what would you do?

(-:

Jim
 
av84fun said:
If you were a ref or a team captain...what would you do?

(-:

Jim
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It's difficult to say as a blanket statement. In my homeroom, probably nothing in both situations. I would want a warning issued but that's because in this situation, the intent of the offender was pretty obvious. He was just being silly. He wasn't practicing and part of an amateur league's goal is educating its members. If I were the opposing team captain, I'd be okay with this.

However, in a tournament, I expect things to be a bit more formal. If it were a professional tournament, I would expect a foul to be called. If it were the Amateur National Championships, again, a foul should be called. Since no two refs are alike, you can't expect all of them to see it the same way so it's best to play it on the safe side.
 
Question about my etiquette....

Last night in APA leagues, I watched a 7 accidentally bump the cueball during his practice stroke and then rush through the shot.

I called him out on the double hit, and he starts to make this scene like I don't know what i'm talking about. After I confronted him and said "i saw the cueball move at least a chalks width foward and then you hit it again." He started to saying "O...i know what you are doing....that shark won't work on me"

Was I in the wrong? Are you suppose to say "bad hit" and if they argue just let it go? I figured since this guy was a 7, you would think he would be honest. Mistakes happen, be a man....right? Or is it, some 7's think they get special treatment because they have a number next to their name?
 
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Bugz said:
Question about my etiquette....

Last night in APA leagues, I watched a 7 accidentally bump the cueball during his practice stroke and then rush through the shot.

I called him out on the double hit, and he starts to make this scene like I don't know what i'm talking about. After I confronted him and said "i saw the cueball move at least a chalks width foward and then you hit it again." He started to saying "O...i know what you are doing....that shark won't work on me"

Was I in the wrong? Are you suppose to say "bad hit" and if they argue just let it go? I figured since this guy was a 7, you would think he would be honest. Mistakes happen, be a man....right? Or is it, some 7's think they get special treatment because they have a number next to their name?
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This is practically a different topic. This is more about protecting yourself as a player in a formal setting. Your scenario is dealing with a cheater in the APA where there is no referee. Every time you play an APA match, you automatically have to assume something like this can happen but that doesn't mean you can't do anything.

You have two courses of action. You can complain to the powers that be. Write your League Director, Board of Governors, Division Reps, etc. Let them know precisely what happened. Let the other team know that you are filing a sportsmanship complaint and move on.

The other thing you can do is cheat back. If he is going to double-hit balls, then you don't even have to make legal shots. If you're playing 8-ball, start hitting combinations with his group. When he protests, tell him you're sure it was a good hit. When he gets frustrated, ask him if he'd like to play by the rules again.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
This is practically a different topic. This is more about protecting yourself as a player in a formal setting. Your scenario is dealing with a cheater in the APA where there is no referee. Every time you play an APA match, you automatically have to assume something like this can happen but that doesn't mean you can't do anything.

You have two courses of action. You can complain to the powers that be. Write your League Director, Board of Governors, Division Reps, etc. Let them know precisely what happened. Let the other team know that you are filing a sportsmanship complaint and move on.

The other thing you can do is cheat back. If he is going to double-hit balls, then you don't even have to make legal shots. If you're playing 8-ball, start hitting combinations with his group. When he protests, tell him you're sure it was a good hit. When he gets frustrated, ask him if he'd like to play by the rules again.
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I like door number 2, but I wasn't the shooter. My teammate was not paying attention to his opponent. It was just right in front of me and I got into it with his opponent. In a team enviroment, wasn't sure if there was unwritten law saying "only the captains and shooters can talk about fouls on the table" or something along those lines.
 
Bugz said:
I like door number 2, but I wasn't the shooter. My teammate was not paying attention to his opponent. It was just right in front of me and I got into it with his opponent. In a team enviroment, wasn't sure if there was unwritten law saying "only the captains and shooters can talk about fouls on the table" or something along those lines.
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Well, they do try to keep discussions to a minimal number of persons. If you weren't the coach/captain/shooter, it's important to approach it delicately - perhaps conveying what you saw through your captain.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
It's difficult to say as a blanket statement. In my homeroom, probably nothing in both situations. I would want a warning issued but that's because in this situation, the intent of the offender was pretty obvious. He was just being silly. He wasn't practicing and part of an amateur league's goal is educating its members. If I were the opposing team captain, I'd be okay with this.

However, in a tournament, I expect things to be a bit more formal. If it were a professional tournament, I would expect a foul to be called. If it were the Amateur National Championships, again, a foul should be called. Since no two refs are alike, you can't expect all of them to see it the same way so it's best to play it on the safe side.
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Understood and agreed.

Regards,
Jim
 
Absolutely correct. I dropped out of weekly tournaments because of inappropriate behavior. My opponent deserves the utmost of respect and gets it. I seldom get it in return.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
So last night was the league finals at my home room and during one of the final games of match, I saw something that I thought was inexcuseable. One of the players was safed and as he approached the table, he stepped up to the adjacent table and playfully shot the cueball into the pocket.

Now, just to make things clear, this was NOT the match table but the table nearby. There was nothing to suggest the shot served any purpose than to simply clear the table and it could only be viewed as a casual silly act. However, I thought it was inexcuseable because it could have been ruled a foul or even worse, a loss of game for practicing while a match was in session.

My point (I hope he reads this) is that you must always protect yourself during competition. Of course, there will be the occasional lapses in concentration but you can't compound that with casual etiquette. It will only get you in trouble. Always try to adhere to the below list. Anyone wishing to add to it, feel free.


4. Always take a bathroom/smoke break when it is your turn at the table.



The important thing here is, don't be casual about etiquette. Competition is always formal and you owe it to yourself, your teammates and your friends to let your game be the determinant and nothing else.
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That might work in New York, but people would get pretty tired of that around here.
 
alstl said:
That might work in New York, but people would get pretty tired of that around here.
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Yeah, I don't mean go smoke/pee EVERY TIME it's your turn. Just when you do, do it ON your turn.
 
All good points. I think "don't reach for your water" it a bit on the excessive side. During our APA action, there are often 8 ppl watching the match. They are certainly all not going to sit still while you play.

Regarding behavior, how do you guys treat the quick '2 seconds of coaching' for you when the other guy just shot and the balls are rolling to a stop?

As expected, one thing I REALLY HATE is when some pals show up and go to talk to the other player/team and make noise, they have the least respect. Oh, then drunks stumbling though the area too. Challenges!!
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Yeah, I don't mean go smoke/pee EVERY TIME it's your turn. Just when you do, do it ON your turn.
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Why would you make all the players on both teams wait while you use the toilet or go outside to take a smoke break when it is your turn to shoot? I think you got that one backwards.
 
alstl said:
Why would you make all the players on both teams wait while you use the toilet or go outside to take a smoke break when it is your turn to shoot? I think you got that one backwards.
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I think you're not conveying your thoughts well. Do you have a problem with when to take breaks or ALL breaks?
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
I think you're not conveying your thoughts well. Do you have a problem with when to take breaks or ALL breaks?
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I think what he meant was if you're taking a break on your turn, everyone has to wait. If you take a break on your opponent's turn, your opponent can keep shooting and you might be back before it's your turn again, thus not making anyone wait. This is usually what I do in playing for fun situations. In a match, I go between racks.

-Andrew
 
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