Rules For Push-out 9 Ball

[Drew]

Wow, and all that from some one who was not even alive when the game was popular. It can't get any more elitist than that Sweet Heart!!!!!!!:rotflmao1:

However, in truth the only reason 9 Ball is played like it is today, is because they had to shorten the length of the games for TV, or I seriously doubt it would have ever changed.

Elitist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbup: Kids, you gotta love em!!!!!!!!!!!

C'mon Manwon, you know me better than that. You're right, I was not around when the game was popular....but I've played quite a bit of it. I wasn't alive when 14.1 was popular either; does that mean I can't have an opinion of the game?

My comment is directed toward the general attitude of this forum. Maybe you can explain how one game is better or worse than another game. If you want to get technical, Texas Express affords you less errors which makes the game more difficult with a lower percentage of luck. One-pocket, Banks, and 2-foul 9-ball give the shooter much more room for error making those games easier to play with a higher percentage of luck.

I don't see how I am an elitist if I find all games of pocket billiards to have some intrinsic value. One-pocket, 14.1, 8-ball (in all its forms), 9-ball, snooker, pyramid, etc: I've played them all, I enjoy them all. Believe it or not, you learn different skills in every game...dismissing Texas Express is an elitist attitude.

 

[Rockin' Robin]

Drew has hit the nail on the head, great post. Our promotion of Texas Express rules made the game much easier to understand for the average player, so much so, that in pool rooms all over the country, where 8 ball was played almost exclusively, you would find many 9 ball games taking place.
Yes, I played 2 shot shoot out for many years, and usually had way the best of it. I would roll out to something impossible, just to get another chance at the table. And one thing you never want to do, is let your opponent get out of the chair. After cutting something backwards, banking something that looked improbable, or just plain slamming away and making a ball, would eventually lead to the opponent starting to take some very low percentage shots just to defend themselves. It was like stealing.......wait....maybe it was.

 

[JB Cases]

C'mon Manwon, you know me better than that. You're right, I was not around when the game was popular....but I've played quite a bit of it. I wasn't alive when 14.1 was popular either; does that mean I can't have an opinion of the game?

My comment is directed toward the general attitude of this forum. Maybe you can explain how one game is better or worse than another game. If you want to get technical, Texas Express affords you less errors which makes the game more difficult with a lower percentage of luck. One-pocket, Banks, and 2-foul 9-ball give the shooter much more room for error making those games easier to play with a higher percentage of luck.

I don't see how I am an elitist if I find all games of pocket billiards to have some intrinsic value. One-pocket, 14.1, 8-ball (in all its forms), 9-ball, snooker, pyramid, etc: I've played them all, I enjoy them all. Believe it or not, you learn different skills in every game...dismissing Texas Express is an elitist attitude.

I don't think that the general attitude of this board is in preference of two-foul nine ball. Some of us just prefer it as that is what we grew up on and we not only appreciate but we understand the differences.

I am not in the elite of anything so nothing I say can be considered elitist.

Having said that I have to disagree with you on which form of nine ball has more luck. While you definitely get punished more in one foul for leaving yourself hooked you get punished WAY more when your opponent does it to you either by skill or by luck. Why should an opponent be allowed to miss the pocket by two diamond with the 8 and 9 on the table and the balls fly around the table and hook the incoming player with a super tough kick? Things like this happen ALL THE TIME in one foul nine ball and decide the game when the guy who got lucky gets rewarded for his poor play.

At least in two foul under the same scenario the incoming player could push out and have a chance.

That's the biggest difference in the game.

I don't think Texas Express rules are bad. I wish that the push out after the break would go away but otherwise the rules are fine. But it's a different game with different strategies.

I once played in a 9-ball handicap tournament in London. In this tournament if you were giving up the five out then when your opponent had reached the five, as in only the five and higher remained on the table then he could pocket any ball our of order and win. In addition they could also play off any ball for safety while the opponent who was giving the weight had to still shoot at the lowest numbered ball.

So what the best players learned to do was try and trap the weaker players in the first four balls while moving the balls into position for an easy run out.

Basically they were playing a completely different version of nine ball. I complained that they weren't learning how to play correctly by doing it this way. And they weren't.

Why does this matter? Because it shows that the game drastically changes when key rules change.

Texas Express is probably better for TV and for tournaments but it's not necessarily a better way to play 9-ball, just a different one.

I gotta say though that John McChesney (RIP), Randy Goetlicher and Robin Adair were and are pretty smart cookies and seasoned players. They changed the game, did it their way, and brought a whole new way to play nine ball to international prominence. That's a pretty tough act to follow.

 

[manwon]

C'mon Manwon, you know me better than that. You're right, I was not around when the game was popular....but I've played quite a bit of it. I wasn't alive when 14.1 was popular either; does that mean I can't have an opinion of the game?

My comment is directed toward the general attitude of this forum. Maybe you can explain how one game is better or worse than another game. If you want to get technical, Texas Express affords you less errors which makes the game more difficult with a lower percentage of luck. One-pocket, Banks, and 2-foul 9-ball give the shooter much more room for error making those games easier to play with a higher percentage of luck.

I don't see how I am an elitist if I find all games of pocket billiards to have some intrinsic value. One-pocket, 14.1, 8-ball (in all its forms), 9-ball, snooker, pyramid, etc: I've played them all, I enjoy them all. Believe it or not, you learn different skills in every game...dismissing Texas Express is an elitist attitude.

Like I said above, Texas Express, and all other forms of 9 Ball being played today, would not even exist if not for television. That is what these games were designed for, and that is the only reason that style of play became popular. As for 9 ball in general, it has the highest percentage of luck in any pool game except for 3 ball or Keno billiards. You are right though, your statements are not elitist, they are actually just show you lack of knowledge on this subject.

The major difference between 9 ball today ( Ball in hand Version for cue ball or all fouls ) and the Push out version is strategy. In two shot roll out or the push out version, depending upon where you were playing all balls jumped off the table or made on a scratch were spotted with ball in hand in the kitchen. The only way to get ball in hand anywhere on the table was by making two consecutive fouls. On a table scratch or other wise, your opponent could tell you to shoot again if they chose to, just like a ring game. All the safety nonsense was taken out of the picture, if your opponent played safe you could just roll out, to a position where you thought you could make the ball and your opponent couldn't hopefully. This took the Chicken shit aspect out of the game, and your shot making skills and cue ball control were put to the maximum test.

Luck was much less a factor in this form of 9 ball and like I said your statements have shown that your vast knowledge of the game is in fact minimal, to nonexistent. You see it is very hard to fool those have seen how a game can be played by experts, so sometimes it is better not to say anything rather than show how much you really know.

No disrespect, I am just stating the facts Drew.

 

[manwon]

Drew has hit the nail on the head, great post. Our promotion of Texas Express rules made the game much easier to understand for the average player, so much so, that in pool rooms all over the country, where 8 ball was played almost exclusively, you would find many 9 ball games taking place.
Yes, I played 2 shot shoot out for many years, and usually had way the best of it. I would roll out to something impossible, just to get another chance at the table. And one thing you never want to do, is let your opponent get out of the chair. After cutting something backwards, banking something that looked improbable, or just plain slamming away and making a ball, would eventually lead to the opponent starting to take some very low percentage shots just to defend themselves. It was like stealing.......wait....maybe it was.

So your saying that Texas Express isn't just like stealing, either way the better player should win when playing sets of seven or better, unless the weaker play is given a spot. I mean all the better has to do is play safe to get the same results you have outlined above, in know way does it even the playing field. The major thing that is different is that you can break a weaker player much fast, I mean the results are the same, except now the strategy of forcing better shot making is replaced with safety play.

Any way you wrap it, Texas Express is a good game and so was Push out, however, since Texas Express was in invented, and became popular the quality of shot making in 9 Ball has declined. People chose safety play over shot making time and time again, and many shots that were common place 35 years ago are not used or even thought of.

Just my thoughts

 

[Drew]

Like I said above, Texas Express, and all other forms of 9 Ball being played today, would not even exist if not for television. That is what these games were designed for, and that is the only reason that style of play became popular. As for 9 ball in general, it has the highest percentage of luck in any pool game except for 3 ball or Keno billiards. You are right though, your statements are not elitist, they are actually just show you lack of knowledge on this subject.

The major difference between 9 ball today ( Ball in hand Version for cue ball or all fouls ) and the Push out version is strategy. In two shot roll out or the push out version, depending upon where you were playing all balls jumped off the table or made on a scratch were spotted with ball in hand in the kitchen. The only way to get ball in hand anywhere on the table was by making two consecutive fouls. On a table scratch or other wise, your opponent could tell you to shoot again if they chose to, just like a ring game. All the safety nonsense was taken out of the picture, if your opponent played safe you could just roll out, to a position where you thought you could make the ball and your opponent couldn't hopefully. This took the Chicken shit aspect out of the game, and your shot making skills and cue ball control were put to the maximum test.

Luck was much less a factor in this form of 9 ball and like I said your statements have shown that your vast knowledge of the game is in fact minimal, to nonexistent. You see it is very hard to fool those have seen how a game can be played by experts, so sometimes it is better not to say anything rather than show how much you really know.

No disrespect, I am just stating the facts Drew.

Oh please...I sure hope you're not implying that the "chicken shit" champs of Texas Express can't hang with the big boys of 2-foul. And I certainly hope you're not implying that ring-game 9-ball is less luck dependent than Texas Express.

The only fact you stated, was that "all that safety nonsense" is eliminated in 2-foul 9-ball. I agree with that statement except for the "nonsense" part. If you believe that defensive play is nonsense, you are sorely mistaken. One of the huge differences between 2-foul and Texas Express is that one form rewards strong safety play and the other forgives poor position play.

Is one form better or easier than the other form? No. The player with more skill will win in both games.

One thing I love about Texas Express is the severity of punishment you receive for a poorly executed shot. You can call it luck if you want to, but I consider that "luck" to be motivation for perfection. 9-ball and 14.1 are exclusive in the fact that a single mistake can cost you an extended match. In 2-foul, you have a second chance to redeem your error.

 

[Mowem down]

its gotta be a combo of both sets of rules . dont spot all the balls after the break... u play safe,i shoot from were they lay. you miss and i get hooked, i should be able to roll out..after a foul Buddy Hall says take it in the kitchen. hard to argue with him, but i dont have a problem with ball in hand. each way would work, his way does bring back the spot shot, that does mean after a foul on the nine the guy is going to have to make (as Mr Hall put it ) some type of "skilled shot" to win..

 

[manwon]

Oh please...I sure hope you're not implying that the "chicken shit" champs of Texas Express can't hang with the big boys of 2-foul. And I certainly hope you're not implying that ring-game 9-ball is less luck dependent than Texas Express.

The only fact you stated, was that "all that safety nonsense" is eliminated in 2-foul 9-ball. I agree with that statement except for the "nonsense" part. If you believe that defensive play is nonsense, you are sorely mistaken. One of the huge differences between 2-foul and Texas Express is that one form rewards strong safety play and the other forgives poor position play.

Is one form better or easier than the other form? No. The player with more skill will win in both games.

One thing I love about Texas Express is the severity of punishment you receive for a poorly executed shot. You can call it luck if you want to, but I consider that "luck" to be motivation for perfection. 9-ball and 14.1 are exclusive in the fact that a single mistake can cost you an extended match. In 2-foul, you have a second chance to redeem your error.

There you go again, your comparison of 9 ball and 14-1 further proves my point. Thanks, for the laugh, I really need one right now!!!!!!:thumbup:

 

[Pushout]

C'mon Manwon, you know me better than that. You're right, I was not around when the game was popular....but I've played quite a bit of it.

Do you mean you've played push out 9 ball? How much? It's been my experience that many, though not all, who grouse about push out have never played enough of it to understand it. I've taught people to play it who started out with TE and they admitted it was a better game, and they had been playing TE for years.

 

[Black-Balled]

STAY ON TOPIC
I asked for the RULES not your OPINIONS
Thank you

IMO

How is it acceptable that one can play a safe, then have the opponent pushout. That is just silly.

A real man's game would be ball in hand after every miss. Call pocket. That might take a bit of luck out of the game, eh.

 

[Drew]

Do you mean you've played push out 9 ball? How much? It's been my experience that many, though not all, who grouse about push out have never played enough of it to understand it. I've taught people to play it who started out with TE and they admitted it was a better game, and they had been playing TE for years.

Yes I have played some 2-foul 9-ball. There was a guy I knew who would not gamble in any other game. The rules were as follow.

1. Push-outs allowed on any shot so long as the previous shot was not a push. Push shots must be announced.
2. A cue ball foul results in BIH.
3. A cue ball scratch results in BIH behind headstring.
4. All balls remain pocketed.
5. If the lowest numbered ball is behind the headstring and the cue ball is to be shot from behind the head string, the object ball is moved to the footspot.
6. Three consecutive fouls does not result in loss of game.

Other than those rules, the game is played just like Texas Express.

If you'll notice, I have never said that Texas Express is better than 2-foul 9-ball. You won't ever hear me say that. Similarly, you won't hear me disrespect such games as "bar rules" 8-Ball.

Thinking less of a player on the basis of his preferred game is very elitist behavior and, most of the time, an incorrect assessments. I've come across bar table 8-ball players who never miss and snooker players who can't make a ball. The strong players can play by whatever rules you feel like implementing.

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

Pushout

One foul ball in hand has two problems. A guy misses and accidently hooks you. He has now became the favorite to win the game. Worse yet when a player gets out of line (when he shouldn't) he simply plays safe and turns a chump into a champion.

Roll Out in its day was dominated by just a handful of players because it required alot more skill. Kieth McCready and Buddy Hall were two dominating players then because their shotmaking skills were outstanding.

I beat a world class player a few months ago in a race to 9 (I won 9-8). He can probably give me the 7 ball. The reason I was able to beat him was because of the one foul rule and some luck. I guarntee you I HAVE NO CHANCE to beat him in push out rules. He just to stong of a shotmaker and a much better player. Ask the world class players that have played both games and everyone of them will tell you push out is a tougher game with less luck involved.

 

[androd]

IMO

How is it acceptable that one can play a safe, then have the opponent pushout. That is just silly.

A real man's game would be ball in hand after every miss. Call pocket. That might take a bit of luck out of the game, eh.

i've played a lot of 9 ball where if you miss, the opponent gets cue ball in hand. it drastically changes the game, favors position play, and increases pressure. i always thought they would switch to this format for T.V. because it's also very fast.
PS; i liked this game because when i missed the object ball was usually sitting in the pocket, not so for most of my opponents.

 

[Black-Balled]

...when a player gets out of line (when he shouldn't) he simply plays safe and turns a chump into a champion...

IF it is a legal shot and it wins the game, I see no issue.

I think is is more a sin against the pool gods to pushout from a safe.

 

[SJDinPHX]

One foul ball in hand has two problems. A guy misses and accidently hooks you. He has now became the favorite to win the game. Worse yet when a player gets out of line (when he shouldn't) he simply plays safe and turns a chump into a champion.

Roll Out in its day was dominated by just a handful of players because it required alot more skill. Kieth McCready and Buddy Hall were two dominating players then because their shotmaking skills were outstanding.

I beat a world class player a few months ago in a race to 9 (I won 9-8). He can probably give me the 7 ball. The reason I was able to beat him was because of the one foul rule and some luck. I guarntee you I HAVE NO CHANCE to beat him in push out rules. He just to stong of a shotmaker and a much better player. Ask the world class players that have played both games and everyone of them will tell you push out is a tougher game with less luck involved.

I agree with your evaluation of the two games Bob. My 9 ball playing years were almost all 2 shot fouls. (push out) By the time TE came along my skills had diminshed at ball running and I was playing almost all one pocket. However, occasionally some young gun would offer me the 8, or 7 to tempt me into playing 9 ball. Most of these guys had never played 2-shot foul 9-ball, and if I could convince them to play those rules, most of them would become so disoriented I could wind up beating them even.
As Buddy has maintained all along, 2-shot foul is a much more strategic game than TE, and the smarter player will usually dominate a straight shooter. Just my .02

Dick

 

[SJDinPHX]

i've played a lot of 9 ball where if you miss, the opponent gets cue ball in hand. it drastically changes the game, favors position play, and increases pressure. i always thought they would switch to this format for T.V. because it's also very fast.
PS; i liked this game because when i missed the object ball was usually sitting in the pocket, not so for most of my opponents.

Rodney, I'm sure you'd like that game with me. You'd have ball in hand every time I shot.What fun would that be?

Dick

 

[poolplayer2093]

That's just a bunch of elitist bullchit. It's like the guys who don't play on bartables because they're "too easy" or the guys who think 9-ball is a "luck game"

i have to agree with Drew on this one

 

[Pushout]

If you'll notice, I have never said that Texas Express is better than 2-foul 9-ball. You won't ever hear me say that. Similarly, you won't hear me disrespect such games as "bar rules" 8-Ball.

Thinking less of a player on the basis of his preferred game is very elitist behavior and, most of the time, an incorrect assessments. I've come across bar table 8-ball players who never miss and snooker players who can't make a ball. The strong players can play by whatever rules you feel like implementing.

Sorry, the conclusion I drew from your post was that you thought less of someone who favored push out over bih. If that was not your intention, fine. This thread has become what the OP did not want and I will now attempt to withdraw from the discussion. I get too damn disgusted with the arguing. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am, and I'm afraid this discussion will continue on and off as long as any of us who favor push out are around.