Rules Question in Match at Texas Open

[punter]

I was watching this tournament online, as Bigtruck is streaming it and doing a great job. Thanks Ray.

They have announced several times that no game can be conceded. If it is done, the penalty is loss of that game and the next game.

Last night in the Owens-Zaid match, Gabe was on the hill and scratched on the nine, and then conceded the game. Zaid needed two games to win the match, so if the rule was enforced the match should have been over with Zaid the winner. Nothing was done, and the match continued. Several people watching online questioned this. The reasoning given by the announcers was that Zaid would have had to call it, even though reportedly the TD was there and watching the match. BTW Gabe went on to win the match hill-hill, in a very exciting last game.

So, I'm wondering exactly how this rule is stated. Is it the other player's duty to call it before it is enforced? Opinions?

Edit: Others have said that the TD wasn't watching

 

[triley41395]

I am not sure how it works their but I have judged tables at a state tourney. and we were not to call any fouls.the opposing player had to call the foul and then I would agree or disagree with what he called a foul.I would explain why it was a foul and if either side dissagreed with me the head judge would come and make a ruling.Like I said that is just how it worked in my case.I would think it is the same.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I don't know the answer but I always thought the no concession rule was for the benefit of the spectators (live and stream audience). If that is the case then I don't see why the other player has to call it. I would think the TD or Ref would just call it anyway.

In any event, I wonder why Zaid didn't call it. Professional courtesy perhaps?

 

[RShellhouse]

Usually or as far as I have seen it..a scratch on the nine is the only time that conceding is allowed. It is assumed that ball in hand on a spotted nine ball would be a game winner for the person receiving it.

It is usually done to help things move along time wise


R

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Then they should just put it into the rules that if you scratch on the nine ball you lose. I don't think it's much of a time saver. It's not as though the incoming player is going to be looking over the layout for 5 minutes. :wink:

 

[Jim Kuykendall]

They have the all balls down rule to keep players from sharking each other.

 

[akaTrigger]

I don't know the answer but I always thought the no concession rule was for the benefit of the spectators (live and stream audience). If that is the case then I don't see why the other player has to call it. I would think the TD or Ref would just call it anyway.

In any event, I wonder why Zaid didn't call it. Professional courtesy perhaps?

I asked Zaid this after the match (well, about 30 minutes after the match, obviously not right after b/c he wasn't happy he lost) and while it took a little while to explain that the concession rule at this tournament is the player wins that game and gets another game (English is not his first language) he said he didn't know that rule was at this tournament (and had heard the rule before).

I also asked Lewis (the TD) if he saw what happened and he did not.

I never asked Lewis had he seen it, if he would have intervened. I don't think TD's can intervene unless asked. At least that's how most tourneys are.

I also never asked Zaid what he would have done had he known that rule. He was upset he lost, not about the rule he didn't know. He kicked so good the last game, but got unlucky shape afterwards and Gabe got a few rolls to get on the hill. Gabe also played that last game really well - he had awesome safes! At one point he kicked at the 2ball to play a really tight safe instead of jumping it in b/c he didn't have a shot at the 3ball down table. The safe was awesome.

Zaid is an excellent player and wanted to win. He seemed to still be thinking of the shots in the match after we told him about the rule, not what the rule would have meant to the outcome of the match.

 

[jay helfert]

I was watching this tournament online, as Bigtruck is streaming it and doing a great job. Thanks Ray.

They have announced several times that no game can be conceded. If it is done, the penalty is loss of that game and the next game.

Last night in the Owens-Zaid match, Gabe was on the hill and scratched on the nine, and then conceded the game. Zaid needed two games to win the match, so if the rule was enforced the match should have been over with Zaid the winner. Nothing was done, and the match continued. Several people watching online questioned this. The reasoning given by the announcers was that Zaid would have had to call it, even though reportedly the TD was there and watching the match. BTW Gabe went on to win the match hill-hill, in a very exciting last game.

So, I'm wondering exactly how this rule is stated. Is it the other player's duty to call it before it is enforced? Opinions?

Edit: Others have said that the TD wasn't watching

Technically, he should have won. But someone has to call it, either the player or TD. If no one says anything and they start the next rack it's too late.

 

[Da Bank]

i watched this match and i got pretty heated in my opinion on this issue.

The tournament director was standing right there and watching the match. It was in front o the TD booth.

A match before I witnessed had the TD step in without either playing knowing the rule or saying anything about it.

The TD should have said something, plain and simple but it was a hard position for him because it involved Gabe Owen and would have decided the match. Gabe Owen is a big name and a big big man, so I can understand the hesitation.

Zaid may not have understood the rule, to his own fault, but he also doesn't understand english well and he is always asking questions.

No one stepped up to the plate and said something, which I think was wrong.

It would be very hard for me to believe that if the tables were turned, someone would not have said something even if Gabe didn't realize the error on Zaid's part.

Generally, a player is responsible for calling the foul, but if the tournament director is standing right there... he should be upholding the rules of the tournament, especially if he has done the same exact thing in almost identical situations before in the same exact tournament.

in my opinion, zaid got screwed in a big big way.

*edit

after reading melissa's comments.. if lewis says he didn't see it, then I believe him, however there are folks at the tournament who said he was standing right there. I was not in the building, but watching it online. Ultimately, Zaid can only blame himself because he should be familiar with the rules of the tournament... however, i can imagine that he might have never been in a tournament with this rule, it is rare.

 

[akaTrigger]

i watched this match and i got pretty heated in my opinion on this issue.

The tournament director was standing right there and watching the match. It was in front o the TD booth.

A match before I witnessed had the TD step in without either playing knowing the rule or saying anything about it.

The TD should have said something, plain and simple but it was a hard position for him because it involved Gabe Owen and would have decided the match. Gabe Owen is a big name and a big big man, so I can understand the hesitation.

Zaid may not have understood the rule, to his own fault, but he also doesn't understand english well and he is always asking questions.

No one stepped up to the plate and said something, which I think was wrong.

It would be very hard for me to believe that if the tables were turned, someone would not have said something even if Gabe didn't realize the error on Zaid's part.

Generally, a player is responsible for calling the foul, but if the tournament director is standing right there... he should be upholding the rules of the tournament, especially if he has done the same exact thing in almost identical situations before in the same exact tournament.

in my opinion, zaid got screwed in a big big way.

As I stated above in my post, I asked Lewis after the match if he saw what happened and he did not see it. Just because he was standing there doesn't mean he was watching that match. To assume nothing was said by the TD b/c it was Gabe is misinformation. Again, Lewis did not see it.

 

[Firecracker]

I wasn't there for that match, but I did see some other matches when players conceded 9-balls and didn't take the additional game.

To me, the concession is for the benefit of the fans and to eliminate controversy with players saying they thought the other player was conceding because they stood up, etc. If I was in that same position in a match and my opponent scratched on the 9 and conceded, with or without knowing the rule, I wouldn't take the additional game, even if it meant winning the match. I want to win based on my skill, not based on a technicality of the rules. As for the TD, unless he is specifically refereeing the match, I would not see a need for them to step in and make the decision for the player.

 

[Mark Griffin]

conceding the 9-ball

This rule did have a huge effect a few years ago. I believe it was in a high profile event.

I am sure someone knows more about this than I can remember. I was not there.

It involved Morro and another well known player. I 'believe' the name player hung the 9-ball. Morro was incoming and the outgoing player conceded the hanging 9-ball.

The score was around 7 to 7; or 8-7 in favor of the guy who hung the 9.. So Morro won that game by his opponent concession - and got another game for the penalty.

End result - the match was over.

I bet Jay or someone can remember more.


Mark Griffin

 

[Bigtruck]

I spoke with Zaid about this shot also and, as Trigger stated, he was un-aware of the rule in this event. Zaid is a class act, 100%, and he never mentioned a single ill word about Gabe or anyone for not stepping in.

While he did not understand the rule was in effect for this event, he IS familiar with the rule. He mentioned that many times, since he only began speaking English about 1 year ago and taught himself, during the announcements over the PA system he has a hard time understanding what is being said. I suggested that he pair up with someone he trusts and have them review the announcements and special rules with him.

Zaid was bummed that he lost, when he clearly would have won right then. He only appeared to be trying to figure a way to learn from this and move forward.

I believe we will be seeing a LOT more of this young man!

Ray

ps. there are videos of Zaid winning the Lone Star Billiards tour event against Charlie Bryant on my Ustream recordings.

 

[jay helfert]

This rule did have a huge effect a few years ago. I believe it was in a high profile event.

I am sure someone knows more about this than I can remember. I was not there.

It involved Morro and another well known player. I 'believe' the name player hung the 9-ball. Morro was incoming and the outgoing player conceded the hanging 9-ball.

The score was around 7 to 7; or 8-7 in favor of the guy who hung the 9.. So Morro won that game by his opponent concession - and got another game for the penalty.

End result - the match was over.

I bet Jay or someone can remember more.


Mark Griffin

It wasn't that long ago (2007) that this happened at a pro tourney in L.A. Yes, Morro won on the two game penalty. Actually it's more like one extra game besides the game he would have won anyway. It should have been hill-hill but instead Morro got one extra game to win 9-8.

 

[DRW]

Camel Tour

This rule did have a huge effect a few years ago. I believe it was in a high profile event.

I am sure someone knows more about this than I can remember. I was not there.

It involved Morro and another well known player. I 'believe' the name player hung the 9-ball. Morro was incoming and the outgoing player conceded the hanging 9-ball.

The score was around 7 to 7; or 8-7 in favor of the guy who hung the 9.. So Morro won that game by his opponent concession - and got another game for the penalty.

End result - the match was over.

I bet Jay or someone can remember more.


Mark Griffin

In 1998 at the Camel Pro 10-ball event in Denver, CO, Francisco B won a match in similar fashion. The shooter was on the hill and jarred the 10. He picked up the 10 and began to rack, when Larry Kiger, walked up and informed him he lost the next game also for conceding the ball. Busty had needed two, so won the match. Needless to say, he was very angry.

 

[Big C]

I think this is a NIT rule, as a concession is a part of the game. You see it all the time during local events. Why should the Texas open be different? Do the fans really benefit watching someone sink a gimme? Any golfers out there know that a concession is a sign of respect as well as a way to speed up the pace of play. If there is one thing the Texas open needs, it's a way to speed up play.

 

[McKinneyMiner]

Any golfers out there know that a concession is a sign of respect as well as a way to speed up the pace of play.

All golfers also know that in tournament play (even at the local level) there is no such thing as a concession on the putting green. Period.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

All golfers also know that in tournament play (even at the local level) there is no such thing as a concession on the putting green. Period.

Not exactly true. The reason concessions are not allowed in a stroke play golf tournament is because every player is competing against the entire field. One player cannot concede a putt on behalf of every other player in the field.

In a match play event such as the Ryder Cup, WGC Accenture Match Play Championship or the final rounds of the USGA Amateur Championship, a player can concede a putt, hole or the entire match, no problem.

A pool tournament is a match play event.

 

[9-ball B]

I've seen this rule put into play many times,even ending the match against both players plea, as stated before by Jay Helfert and Mark Griffin. If the TD is paying attention,he or she needs to enforce it to be fair to everyone that was in the tourney. You can't enforce it at the TD's discretion only,it needs to be enforced at ALL ocurrances or don't have the rule at all. Sounds like Zaid got the short end of the stick,and whoever may have been involved in the auction.

 

[gromulan]

I think this is a NIT rule, as a concession is a part of the game. You see it all the time during local events. Why should the Texas open be different? Do the fans really benefit watching someone sink a gimme? Any golfers out there know that a concession is a sign of respect as well as a way to speed up the pace of play.

I agree with this. Any TD that implements this rule should be barred from organizing, playing in, betting on, or having any opportunity to profit from a pool match for the rest of their lifetime. If you don't trust your players to respect a 'no concession' request of their own volition, you should just f*** off.

Furthermore, any player that accepts a game or two game penalty because his player conceded a game should be barred from all tournaments for 10 years. No one should gamble with this person ever again. Seriously, if you need the prize money that bad, go rob a liquor store.


Pool has enough nits and nit rules as it is. This is one of the worst!