Rules question? {Safety after the break}
- Thread starter MastersMaster
- Start date
The dilema ocurred as the player that called safty did not intend to pocket an object ball. He never called such ball to a pocket thus the dispute. The rule book is actually unclear to this situation as it mentions nothing about safes being played on a open table after the break. I personally feel the table is still open and am glad to see the differing veiw points and am looking forward to more.
MastersMaster said:
Whether or not the shooter intends to make a ball or otherwise, if a safety is called--- it's an open table. If I'm playing someone in 8-ball and my next shot after the break has a solid and a stripe hanging in the pocket, surrounded by random balls (hypothetical) and there's no way to run either out.... I'd call safe, make both balls on one shot, and lock the CB against one of the surrounding balls.
Table is open, and it's the incoming player's shot. Intent to make a ball has nothing to do w/ the validity of a called safety.
This question comes up so often that it should be written explicitly in the rulebook. As it is now, there are two rules in conjunction that make the table open.MastersMaster said:
The easiest answer is: don't confuse 'legal shot' with 'legally pocketing a ball.' Playing the safety is a legal shot, but the ball pocketed isn't a legally pocketed ball. And you have to pocket a ball legally to determine your suit.
Consider this situation: you call a ball on your first shot, miss it, but it goes into another pocket. Same situation. You shot a legal shot. A ball went down. But the ball that went down wasn't a "legally pocketed ball," by the rule definition. Therefore, it's clear that you don't get that group.
4.10 CHOICE OF GROUP
The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups, because the table is always open immediately after the break shot. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot
4.16 ILLEGALLY POCKETED BALLS
An object ball is considered to be illegally pocketed when (1) that object ball is pocketed on the same shot a foul is committed, or (2) the called ball did not go in the designated pocket, or (3) a safety is called prior to the shot. Illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed and are scored in favor of the shooter controlling that specific group of balls, solids or stripes.
So, these are two rules. I've highlighted the areas that make this rule pretty clear that the table is open.
Fred
BVal said:
I gave you a rep too for your fight. This was a good one. Not as good as the argument from way back on whether scooping was a foul if it wasn't intentional. Omg, I need to take a beta blocker just thinking about that one.
selftaut said:
It doesn't mention "scored for the shooter". If the shooter illegally potted a stripe ball, but the opponent already having the stripe ball, than it's the favor of the opponent, not the shooter. The rule for an open table is still, to pocket a legal ball. Since it's not legal, it's still open.
This very situation came up in a thread a while back.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=47679
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=47679
ScottW said:
The reason why these truly BASIC scenarios turn into retardedly long threads is because some pool leagues do not play by published BCA rules - - which makes VNEA scenarios possible where you can call safe, make a ball, and keep shooting. It's a total disservice to pool to play by botched, made-up rules. Someone who only plays in a bar and VNEA for example would fight tooth-and-nail that the shooter has established himself/herself and may continue after a called safety. Try gambling with knowledgeable player and see how far you get.
It's vaguely painful to read past the first page of that thread.
