Certainly you are correct in your statement, but the issue is why is it an unsportsmanlike conduct issue and not a simple foul.
Rules question.
- Thread starter Myk
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Certainly you are correct in your statement, but the issue is why is it an unsportsmanlike conduct issue and not a simple foul.
Because otherwise there would be no difference between taking a legitimate "shot" (a forward stroke motion) to make an intentional foul versus some non-legitimate motion of the cue stick (such as tapping the cue ball from above with the ferrule) -- both would carry just a one-point penalty.
If the shooter does not take a "shot," it is unsportsmanlike conduct and the referee "may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct" (paragraph 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct) or "a penalty depending on the nature of the offense" (paragraph 4.11 Serious Fouls). Under these new rules (since 1/1/2008), I wonder whether a serious penalty would be imposed only in the event of a repeat offense (unlike in the Reyes/West match cited in post #33 above, when different rules were in effect.)
sausage
Banned
i've pocketed balls using the side of my tip and a sweeping motion cue "stroke". i guess the refs would frown on that too. lol...
Very good point! Shoot, these days they give drug dealers free passes and slap murderers on the wrist. Why in the world should they be conservative with mere pool rules. :shrug:
Can someone post a link to the BCA or World rules that states you can put your tip beneath the CB and tap upwards while taking an intentional foul in 14.1? I can't find it on the BCA website.
Thanks-
Dave
Thanks-
Dave
That's unsportsmanlike conduct. You have to get to that conclusion in steps. The only way you are permitted to intentionally change the position of the balls in play is by a shot on the cue ball. That must be with a forward stroke. Sweeping/tapping upwards is not a forward stroke, so it is not a permitted way to move the cue ball. It is not a part of the game. See 6.16 in http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_fouls
I understand. When I looked at the unsportsmanlike conduct rule, it just said "by intentionally miscuing." If you only make contact with the tip of the cue while you "tap upwards" when the tip is underneath the ball-- that's not a miscue, right?
I agree with what you're saying, but I'm trying to see exactly where that's spelled out in the rules. A friend of mine said he saw it happen at the world 14.1. Also, I was playing a 14.1 match tonight where someone did that to me. I didn't call a foul on him, but just let him know it wasn't allowed. After that, he went over to a bud of mine (who showed the move to him) to get validation. My friend bet me $20 it was legal. So far, I haven't found the back-up in the written rules to say it's not. His argument is that "it's not a miscue" and since the leather struck the CB, it was a shot. Where is a shot defined?
What sections should I reference?
Dave
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"8. Definitions Used in the Rules
8.2 Shot
A shot begins when the tip contacts the cue ball due to a forward stroke motion of the cue stick. A shot ends when all balls in play have stopped moving and spinning. A shot is said to be legal if the shooter did not foul during the shot."
A shot begins when the tip contacts the cue ball due to a forward stroke motion of the cue stick. A shot ends when all balls in play have stopped moving and spinning. A shot is said to be legal if the shooter did not foul during the shot."
I have some quiz which not really clear, as we have to translate it in to Vietnam to know exactly.
1. When I played all 14 ball, and they're all re-racked, when I made the 15th ball is it a break? or the break is the next shot after the 15th ball? to define which shot is the break shot I must follow the rule to keep cue ball and at least 2 objects ball touch the rail.
2. What if I make a shot, but the ball I call is not pocketed. The other 2 balls is pocket accidental. Will I be penalized 2 points or just only 1?
Tks for reply
1. When I played all 14 ball, and they're all re-racked, when I made the 15th ball is it a break? or the break is the next shot after the 15th ball? to define which shot is the break shot I must follow the rule to keep cue ball and at least 2 objects ball touch the rail.
2. What if I make a shot, but the ball I call is not pocketed. The other 2 balls is pocket accidental. Will I be penalized 2 points or just only 1?
Tks for reply
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1. = when all 15 have to be racked during the game you don't revert to the opening break shot, you only need to go to a rail with the cueball or an object ball for a safety on a legal hit
2. = there is no penalty if you made a legal hit but just didn't pocket the called ball, the pocketed balls spot.
2. = there is no penalty if you made a legal hit but just didn't pocket the called ball, the pocketed balls spot.
Other than the sections already given, I suppose you might get an opinion from the Chief Editor of the last WPA rules revision. He's readily available.
Danny Barouty
Registered
Dennis Orcullo didn't know it
That's true. I was playing Dennis for, well it doesn't really matter, but he needed 15 to win. He ran 14 and left the cue ball and the object ball in the rack. He looked at me and got down to shoot the game ball when I reminded him that we were not using Manila rules. Anyway, after racking 15 he played safe and I ran out on him. Even the great ones suffer from brain freeze now and then.
That's true. I was playing Dennis for, well it doesn't really matter, but he needed 15 to win. He ran 14 and left the cue ball and the object ball in the rack. He looked at me and got down to shoot the game ball when I reminded him that we were not using Manila rules. Anyway, after racking 15 he played safe and I ran out on him. Even the great ones suffer from brain freeze now and then.
I don't think it's brain freeze in his case, I think it is a simple lack of knowledge and/or experience. I've seen a 200-ball runner who didn't realize that a cue ball left in the rack goes behind the line. I think we need more tournaments.
sausage
Banned
that reminded me of a time when i intentionally left the cue in the rack on the 14th ball then proceeded to put the cue behind the head-string. my opponent got on my case and told me that the head string was on the rack end of the table. to add to my frustration, when we looked in the rule book, THE BOOK WAS WRONG. LOL.... i guess it was a typo. i just had to quit playing with the guy.
I forget exactly when it was, probably in the late 70's early 80's, but I was playing a guy 14.1 and an end of the rack situation came up. I started to apply the usual rule, and he said that's not what the rule book says. He proceeded to pull out his BCA rule book and there was the broken rule. Fortunately, the rule was only wrong for a year, and the guy's rule book was two years old, and the owner of the room had a new rule book that had the correct rule. That was back when the BCA was changing the rules every year to keep us on our toes.
14-1StraightMan said:
I noticed that in the finals of the US Open yesterday that Immonen actually grabbed the cue ball as it was about to scratch. To my knowledge nothing was said. Souquet was given cue ball in hand and play proceeded.
Thanks
That's good that there was no other penalty. It should only be a scratch.
Im glad it came up.
That's good that there was no other penalty. It should only be a scratch.
Im glad it came up.
There are a few situations in which grabbing the cue ball can be a move, but none that I can think of at nine ball. There were some other situations at the Open where strict rules were overlooked, but not in any way that changed the game.
I think Immonen grabbed the cue ball out of frustration rather than usefulness, since they were playing on a non-return table. It's a bad habit to have in case you find yourself in a match with a strict referee.