rules question

alphadog

alphadog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cueball is frozen to a ball that is 1/2" off the rail.Object ball is partially blocked by another ball. Player is using jump stick. Ref watches shot. If cue strikes ball frozen to cueball then cueball , is it a foul even if jump results in a hood hit?
Frozen ball didnt move any other balls.
What is the foul?
 
alphadog said:
Cueball is frozen to a ball that is 1/2" off the rail.Object ball is partially blocked by another ball. Player is using jump stick. Ref watches shot. If cue strikes ball frozen to cueball then cueball , is it a foul even if jump results in a hood hit?
Frozen ball didnt move any other balls.
What is the foul?
Click to expand...

I'm going to assume that the cueball is frozen in FRONT of that ball and not behind since for a second I was trying to think of a jump cue and player that could jump over a ball frozen to the cueball without makig it move LOL

Since there is no way to jump the ball without striking the frozen ball first not matter how skilled you are, I would call a foul. It's not "accidental" or "incidental" contact during a shot, there is clearly no way to hit the ball without hitting the other ball as well which is mis-use of the cue ball only rule. I would also call a foul if the tip hit another ball before striking the cueball on any shot. Lets say you have the cueball in front of another ball and it's blocking your path to hit the cueball where you want, you can only see the left of it but you need to hit center cueball for shape. If you can hit the other ball first and no foul, you can just stroke through the ball, push it out of the way and on your follow though hit the cueball center. Or "accidentally" hit the other ball, have it hit the cueball as a combo then the object ball and just say "oops well there is no foul there since it was cueball fouls only".

However the "official" ruling may be different from what I would see as the correct call there, and a search for "object call hit with the cue first" did not turn anything up.
 
Its possible to jump without striking the impeeding ball.I like your foul if the tip strikes a ball before the cb.
 
sounds like the cueball was forced to move by the accidental hit of the frozen ball since it was frozen to a ball that was just pushed into it. even if it's microscopic the cueball would have been moved by that hit before the tip made contact with the cueball. Making the cueball move in any way other than direct contact with the tip of your cue is as far as I know always a foul.
 
So long as I understand you correctly:

It depends on the rule set that you are playing. Unless you are playing All-ball-foul rules, this shot is not a foul. The ball was moved 'accidentally', during the process of the shot. It did not contact any other ball, including the cueball. In most rule sets, the opponent has the right to re-position the 'accidentally' moved ball.
 
I think it's a foul to hit the object ball first even if it is the only ball disturbed.

But it gets me thinking of what the call would be in the situation where the guy makes a good hit on the CB jumping but the frozen OB moves. Under most foul rules, when an OB is frozen to a cushion, contact with that rail does not count unless the OB leaves that rail and then comes back to it. Applying this concept one could make the case it is not a foul because since the balls are frozen, contact with it shouldn't count unless it subsequently contacts that ball again.

I wonder what Buddy or Bill have to say about this in regards to BCAPL rules for 8 Ball, 9 Ball, and 10 Ball when the frozen OB is not otherwise a proper ball for the first contact rule.
 
Last edited:
alphadog said:
Cueball is frozen to a ball that is 1/2" off the rail.Object ball is partially blocked by another ball. Player is using jump stick. Ref watches shot. If cue strikes ball frozen to cueball then cueball , is it a foul even if jump results in a hood hit?
Frozen ball didnt move any other balls.
What is the foul?
Click to expand...

Set down the coffee. Read what you wrote and try and explain what is going on again. I have no idea what is actually happening during this shot. Maybe a picture showing what's actually going on would help. I called a foul on a guy once when he was bridging over the 8 ball. Cue ball was almost frozen to the 8. When he stroked he hit the 8 first and the 8 barely nudged the cue ball before contact. Is this kind of like what you're saying?
 
Jumping the 8
 

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Ok. So basically I interpret the rules as this for cue ball fouls only. If the 10 ball is frozen to the cue ball and the 10 is contacted first, yes it is a foul. But if the cue contacts the 10 after the cue ball is hit first, no foul. The bigger problem is, that in cue ball fouls only. There is nothing that says it's illegal to contact an object ball first with your tip.
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
Ok. So basically I interpret the rules as this for cue ball fouls only. If the 10 ball is frozen to the cue ball and the 10 is contacted first, yes it is a foul. But if the cue contacts the 10 after the cue ball is hit first, no foul. The bigger problem is, that in cue ball fouls only. There is nothing that says it's illegal to contact an object ball first with your tip.
Click to expand...

Is this really the case?
VNEA
BCA
WPA
 
alphadog said:
Is this really the case?
VNEA
BCA
WPA
Click to expand...

Just went back and reviewed all the rule books I have on my phone. VNEA, WPA, NAPA, and APA. Only the WPA has anything that indicates that the cue stick is to strike the cue ball first.

The player uses a stick (pool cue) to strike a cue ball which in turn strikes object balls.
Click to expand...

That is in the WPA rules. Not in any other rule book I have.
 
When I gamble and any OB is touching the CB, I always declare them frozen, and state if the OB moves it's a foul. That's how all the people I gamble against also handle this. Philadelphia area for reference.

Also for reference, we play CB fouls only.
 
iusedtoberich said:
When I gamble and any OB is touching the CB, I always declare them frozen, and state if the OB moves it's a foul. That's how all the people I gamble against also handle this. Philadelphia area for reference.

Also for reference, we play CB fouls only.
Click to expand...

When shooting away from the frozen ball in this situation, the only way the OB can move is via contact with the cue stick. So in your cue ball fouls only this is only a foul if he strikes the OB first causing the CB to move. Otherwise this isn't a foul even in your rules.
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
When shooting away from the frozen ball in this situation, the only way the OB can move is via contact with the cue stick. So in your cue ball fouls only this is only a foul if he strikes the OB first causing the CB to move. Otherwise this isn't a foul even in your rules.
Click to expand...


When playing CB fouls only, there are a few exceptions. This is one. Another is moving 2 object balls in one hole. Another is moving an OB that later gets in the path of the moving CB. These are the gambling rules I've played and seen played by top local Open players to D players.
 
iusedtoberich said:
When playing CB fouls only, there are a few exceptions. This is one. Another is moving 2 object balls in one hole. Another is moving an OB that later gets in the path of the moving CB. These are the gambling rules I've played and seen played by top local Open players to D players.
Click to expand...

No, those are just standard rules. And by the way, if you move an OB and cue ball crosses where that ball should have been, that's a foul also.
 
If the cue strikes a object ball before the cueball, wpuld it mot be a foul for" shooting while balls are moving"?
 
alphadog said:
If the cue strikes a object ball before the cueball, wpuld it mot be a foul for" shooting while balls are moving"?
Click to expand...

I don't see a real set of rules where hitting another ball with the tip would be legal. What if you made a ball after doing that, you just played a 3 ball combo where you used an object ball as the cueball. And it's amazing that I don't see that in the rules. Lots of rules about what is legal after you shoot but not what happens before or during a shot.

Maybe it's so clear that you can't use another object ball to strike another ball that the rules people just never added that in. A bit like adding a rule for "if all gravity fails and the balls float up over the table and back down, they are to be played in the positions they land in".

If you can't make 9 ball in with the 5 ball, I don't see how you can contact another ball with the tip during a shot before the cueball and have it be a legal shot.
 
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