Ruling

[JoeyA]

Player A while attempting a jump shot removes the very end of the jump cue in order to use the dart stroke method of jumping with his legal jump cue. He places the end piece in the corner pocket and jumps the obstacle, hits the intended target, the IT hits a rail but no ball is pocketed. Player A sits down.

Player B takes the next shot shooting the correct object ball into the corner pocket containing the end piece of Player A's jump cue. The legally hit object ball goes into the pocket, practically disappears but bounce back out on to the table.

Did player B foul by hitting the object?

Is player A guilty of unsportsmanlike conduct?

We all know what SHOULD be done.

What is the rule?
JoeyA

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Player A while attempting a jump shot removes the very end of the jump cue in order to use the dart stroke method of jumping with his legal jump cue. He places the end piece in the corner pocket and jumps the obstacle, hits the intended target, the IT hits a rail but no ball is pocketed. Player A sits down.

Player B takes the next shot shooting the correct object ball into the corner pocket containing the end piece of Player A's jump cue. The legally hit object ball goes into the pocket, practically disappears but bounce back out on to the table.

Did player B foul by hitting the object?

Is player A guilty of unsportsmanlike conduct?

We all know what SHOULD be done.

What is the rule?
JoeyA

The moment Player B is at the table, he assumes responsibility for Player A's cue butt. The fact Player B even chose to shoot with a cue butt in the pocket is very strange to me but it's his fault for doing it.

I mean, what would happen if Player A accidentally knocked a cube of chalk into the middle of the table and Player B shot at it? It's Player B's responsibility to make sure the table is clear of obstructions since he is the shooter.

In both examples, I would rule it a foul on Player B. Player A gets ball-in-hand. However, I'm not sure if I'm right.

 

[JoeyA]

The moment Player B is at the table, he assumes responsibility for Player A's cue butt. The fact Player B even chose to shoot with a cue butt in the pocket is very strange to me but it's his fault for doing it.

I mean, what would happen if Player A accidentally knocked a cube of chalk into the middle of the table and Player B shot at it? It's Player B's responsibility to make sure the table is clear of obstructions since he is the shooter.

In both examples, I would rule it a foul on Player B. Player A gets ball-in-hand. However, I'm not sure if I'm right.

The jump cue extension on a Predator Air is only about 6" long and can easily be overlooked in a pocket.

There's a big difference in a piece of jointly used piece of chalk and one particular player's personal equipment.

What's the ruling?
JoeyA

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

The moment Player B is at the table, he assumes responsibility for Player A's cue butt. The fact Player B even chose to shoot with a cue butt in the pocket is very strange to me but it's his fault for doing it.

I mean, what would happen if Player A accidentally knocked a cube of chalk into the middle of the table and Player B shot at it? It's Player B's responsibility to make sure the table is clear of obstructions since he is the shooter.

In both examples, I would rule it a foul on Player B. Player A gets ball-in-hand. However, I'm not sure if I'm right.

NO fouls.
I don't think Player A would get b.i.h.
I think Player A would have to shoot from where the balls lay... imo
Doug
( it's the same as the ball bouncing out of an empty or ball(s) occupied pocket........ that would be MY ruling as TD )

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Wait, this is interesting:

3.25 PLAYER RESPONSIBILITY FOULS
The player is responsible for chalk, bridges, files and any other items or equipment he brings to, uses at, or causes to approximate the table. If he drops a piece of chalk, or knocks off a mechanical bridge head, as examples, he is guilty of a foul should such an object make contact with any ball in play (or the cue ball only if no referee is presiding over the match).

So it's a foul. The question is, which player is responsible?

 

[cubc]

He should've ran the rack out using the other 5 pockets, then hand him the butt, and say he didnt need that pocket anyway.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

There's a big difference in a piece of jointly used piece of chalk and one particular player's personal equipment.

What's the ruling?
JoeyA

Yes, there is a difference based on the rule I just posted however, the concept is somewhat similar. It's a piece of foreign equipment that has had an effect on the outcome of balls in play. The difference between the two is that chalk is automatically both players' responsibility since both use it. A cue is not. This is interesting.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

NO fouls.
I don't think Player A would get b.i.h.
I think Player A would have to shoot from where the balls lay... imo
Doug
( it's the same as the ball bouncing out of an empty or ball(s) occupied pocket........ that would be MY ruling as TD )

If it's cue ball fouls only, you might be right. If it's not, it's a foul. It would also depend on who is responsible, I believe. If player A is held responsible, it could be a foul. If player B is responsible, under cue ball fouls only, Player A should have to play them where they are.

 

[Irish634]

He should've ran the rack out using the other 5 pockets, then hand him the butt, and say he didnt need that pocket anyway.

haha. I like that option.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

If it's cue ball fouls only, you might be right. If it's not, it's a foul. It would also depend on who is responsible, I believe. If player A is held responsible, it could be a foul. If player B is responsible, under cue ball fouls only, Player A should have to play them where they are.

I think it would only be a foul if player B comitted a foul while at the table. I don't think forgetting his 6" piece of the jump cue in a/the pocket is a foul and I think that player A, by accepting the table as it was and shooting the correct object ball into the pocket containing the jump handle and having it (the ball) bounce back onto the table, would result in only a MISS by player A. It would be player B's shot as the balls lay and one of the idiots should remove the offending handle.....
Doug




.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

The jump cue extension on a Predator Air is only about 6" long and can easily be overlooked in a pocket.

There's a big difference in a piece of jointly used piece of chalk and one particular player's personal equipment.

What's the ruling?
JoeyA

I just IM'd the question to a referee I know and hopefully I'll get a response. The fact that the player may not have seen the obstruction could be an issue.

This is how I'm thinking - Because the shooter may not have known there was something in the pocket, he may be

a. awarded BIH OR
b. the object-ball may be considered pocketed

I mean, if it's ruled any other way, what's to stop people from stuffing pockets with towels hoping the other guy forgets?


HOWEVER, if it's an obvious obstruction, he's likely going to lose his turn at the table.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I think it would only be a foul if player B comitted a foul while at the table. I don't forgetting his 6" piece of the jump cue in a/the pocket is a foul and I think that player A, by accepting the table as it was and shooting the correct object ball into the pocket containing the jump handle and having it (the ball) bounce back onto the table, would result in only a MISS by player A. It would be player B's shot as the balls lay and one of the idiots should remove the offending handle.....
Doug

I don't agree with you but I understand where you're coming from. I'm really curious what a BCA ref has to say. Hopefully I'll have an answer before Thursday but I'll definitely have one by then.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

I Always Find A Use For Bar Towels

I mean, if it's ruled any other way, what's to stop people from stuffing pockets with towels hoping the other guy forgets?

That's easy, a BOP on the nose, a kick in the ass and loss of all the towels.
Doug
( bar towels or bath towels ? )

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

That's easy, a BOP on the nose, a kick in the ass and loss of all the towels.
Doug
( bar towels or bath towels ? )

Obviously bar towels.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

NO fouls.
I don't think Player A would get b.i.h.
I think Player A would have to shoot from where the balls lay... imo
Doug
( it's the same as the ball bouncing out of an empty or ball(s) occupied pocket........ that would be MY ruling as TD )

I would agree with this. Some might say to replay the game, but I think some responsibility must be on player B.

 

[cigardave]

I'm hard pressed to believe that a foul was committed in the situation originally described. The rule cited by Jude does not apply imo.

The question of whether or not the ball would have stayed down in the pocket had the cue butt section not been there can never be answered with utmost certainty.

The correct call imo is... Player A's turn at the table... with the table left as is after the ball popped out of the pocket while Player B was shooting.

And, of course, the cue extension should be removed from the pocket before Player A shoots his first shot.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

I'm Waiting With Bait On My Breath.......(LIVE Bait)

I just IM'd the question to a referee I know and hopefully I'll get a response.

I just PMed Bob Jewett and he has the answer to EVERYTHING in his briefcase.
Doug

 

[satman]

I'm not sure

The jump cue extension on a Predator Air is only about 6" long and can easily be overlooked in a pocket.

There's a big difference in a piece of jointly used piece of chalk and one particular player's personal equipment.

What's the ruling?
JoeyA

Not sure about the ruling in this case, but when playing on drop pocket tables, such as a Gold Crown. You used to see the players go and take any balls out of the pocket, especially if they were going to fire in a ball. The ball would go down, hit another ball, and bounce back to the table. The ball didn't count and the player lost his shot unless he pocketed something else.
If I was the tournament director, and had to make this call, I'd say that when the ball bounced back to the table, it don't count. I would also give a warning to the player who left the jump cue in the pocket to place his cue somewhere else in the future, of it would be a foul against him.
I personally don't like people leaving their cue in the pockets anyway.

 

[teebee]

I think it would only be a foul if player B comitted a foul while at the table. I don't forgetting his 6" piece of the jump cue in a/the pocket is a foul and I think that player A, by accepting the table as it was and shooting the correct object ball into the pocket containing the jump handle and having it (the ball) bounce back onto the table, would result in only a MISS by player A. It would be player B's shot as the balls lay and one of the idiots should remove the offending handle.....
Doug

I agree, I don't think it is a foul to set equipment anywhere on a table as long as you don't commit a foul while doing it. I can't find anything that makes it a foul to leave that equipment there when you are done with it ( unorthodox and careless maybe). You are responsible to make sure a pocket is clear of extra balls that make it unlikely to recieve another ball, I wonder if this is a similar situation.

 

[stick8]

rule

Player A while attempting a jump shot removes the very end of the jump cue in order to use the dart stroke method of jumping with his legal jump cue. He places the end piece in the corner pocket and jumps the obstacle, hits the intended target, the IT hits a rail but no ball is pocketed. Player A sits down.

Player B takes the next shot shooting the correct object ball into the corner pocket containing the end piece of Player A's jump cue. The legally hit object ball goes into the pocket, practically disappears but bounce back out on to the table.

Did player B foul by hitting the object?

Is player A guilty of unsportsmanlike conduct?

We all know what SHOULD be done.

What is the rule?
JoeyA

My opinion, do away with jumping alltogether!!!and that is all i have to say about that!!!!