Run This (26)

[Dan White]

This is one I have trouble with (without the safety ball): trying to plow through a cluster and getting trapped inside it.

Any tips on avoiding getting stuck in the cluster when you have to take the shot and there's no safety ball on the near side?

I think the conventional wisdom is that you have to shoot harder when you have to plunge into a cluster and you have no safety balls. Use plenty of follow and make sure the cue ball has enough juice on it not to get stuck to anything.

On the other hand, for my own development, I prefer to try and work the cluster apart even when there are no safety balls. If you can figure out precisely where the cue ball is going, or can make it go somewhere with precision, I think you can usually pop balls out to shoot next. On one hand this is harder to do, but on the other you assure yourself of a next shot and a more open cluster if you execute the shot correctly. I usually find my runs ending when I take a "pot luck" shot so lately I'm trying not to do that.

 

[Deadon]

I prefer to shoot the 14 first and roll from the rail across going at the 5, a little simple high will do it. Control the angle from pocketing the 5 and break off the 12 going into the 11/7 with a medium speed. 13, 10 are safety balls. By hitting at this angle, the ball will spread, toward the opposite empty side, but probably not make it to the rail. The 5 will be gone so there is no chance of tying up balls that need that pocket.

The CB is moving alot further if you start with the 3 and hope to get the right angle on the 12.

 

[Deadon]

I agree with this. Since it's so early in the rack, I would probably even shoot the 2 off first to gain easily reached and assured access on the angle for the 13-ball. Going in this way just seems so natural given that there's a beautiful concavity of the contact area of the cluster, and no balls on the opposite side to run into. And like poolplayer2093 said, you'd have to be (quite) unlucky to not have a shot afterwards.

You'll have a shot, but going at that cluster(the beautiful concavity) at that angle, you may end up shooting over another ball(s). If you hit it hard, 2 balls, 15 and 1, head for the rail and the 5 ball, creating another problem.

 

[pdcue]

This is one I have trouble with (without the safety ball): trying to plow through a cluster and getting trapped inside it.

Any tips on avoiding getting stuck in the cluster when you have to take the shot and there's no safety ball on the near side?

pj
chgo

As a rule of thumb - this cluster is too big to power thru.
With no insurance ball<1 ball> I would try to pull the CB into the
near side of the 2 and push something out
for a shot in the side pocket.

IMHO-knowing when to skip off a cluster vs go thru it
is one of the most advanced aspects of 14.1.
Some players do have general guidelines - but you can
only develop a good feel by bumping
lots of clusters lots of times.

Dale

 

[14.1 Rome]

mine:
14,5,12 (CB on cluster within 7-11 with 13 escape ball)
...

 

[CueAndMe]

You'll have a shot, but going at that cluster(the beautiful concavity) at that angle, you may end up shooting over another ball(s). If you hit it hard, 2 balls, 15 and 1, head for the rail and the 5 ball, creating another problem.

I think you're right. You have me wondering what the chances are of bad things happening in a situation like this. I tried to figure out how the balls would spread in three situations. Here's a 3-page illustration of what I could figure. I'm curious if others see it differently.
The exact positions of the balls would depend on the power of the shot, but I think their directions would be nearly the same for all speeds.

The smaller cuetable doesn't show the exact impact from the cueball, so on page 1 I'm exactly splitting the 7-11, on page 2 I'm hitting the 11 squarely, and on page 3 I'm half-ball hitting the 15.

CueTable Help

 

[Dan White]

I gotta say that I strongly disagree with any sequence that takes the 13 off the table before you go into the cluster. I thought some may want to shoot the 13 early, so I mentioned in the original post that you can see the 13 past the 2 ball. If I were inclined to shoot the 13 as a break ball, I'd go for it now, while I can still reach the cue ball. I think I'd be shooting in a funny position, or using the bridge if I shoot the 2 or 14 first, and then the 13.

The mindset of thinking, "I'll go into that cluster over there and would have to have bad luck not to get something to shoot at" gets me in trouble time after time. To me this is what you do when you have no other option. Why go pot luck when there is a perfectly good safety ball (the 13) and you have at least two good paths to break into the cluster and make use of that 13? (3-12 or 14-5-12). Not only does the 13 give you an out, it allows you to go into the cluster much more softly, bumping some balls out into break position, and not sending any balls to get tied up on the rail, or go uptable.

This reminds me of the kind of mathematical analysis Bob Jewett likes to do. Let's say you want to run 100 balls. Let's also assume that you use the "something good has to happen" kind of thinking on clusters once every other rack. So what is an acceptable percentage of success with a shot like this? 4 out of 5 good outcomes? Let's go with that -- 80% success rate on a pot luck break out of a cluster just for argument's sake. You need 7 racks and every other rack you are shooting a shot you have 80% success with (say 3 racks). That means you have a .80x.80x.80 = 51% chance of success, or a 49% chance of getting snookered and ending your run during the course of a 100 ball run. Why mess with these odds when you don't have to?

It would be nice if a Steve Lipsky or Blackjack would add his 2 cents.

 

[poolplayer2093]

I agree with this. Since it's so early in the rack, I would probably even shoot the 2 off first to gain easily reached and assured access on the angle for the 13-ball. Going in this way just seems so natural given that there's a beautiful concavity of the contact area of the cluster, and no balls on the opposite side to run into. And like poolplayer2093 said, you'd have to be (quite) unlucky to not have a shot afterwards.

i'm glad someone saw this. i thought it was a pretty good idea. the only reason i don't like shooting the 2 first is because it's a pretty good break ball with the 10 as a key ball. and i don't trust myself enough to try to bump another one out

 

[CueAndMe]

I gotta say that I strongly disagree with any sequence that takes the 13 off the table before you go into the cluster. I thought some may want to shoot the 13 early, so I mentioned in the original post that you can see the 13 past the 2 ball. If I were inclined to shoot the 13 as a break ball, I'd go for it now, while I can still reach the cue ball. I think I'd be shooting in a funny position, or using the bridge if I shoot the 2 or 14 first, and then the 13.

The mindset of thinking, "I'll go into that cluster over there and would have to have bad luck not to get something to shoot at" gets me in trouble time after time. To me this is what you do when you have no other option. Why go pot luck when there is a perfectly good safety ball (the 13) and you have at least two good paths to break into the cluster and make use of that 13? (3-12 or 14-5-12). Not only does the 13 give you an out, it allows you to go into the cluster much more softly, bumping some balls out into break position, and not sending any balls to get tied up on the rail, or go uptable.

This reminds me of the kind of mathematical analysis Bob Jewett likes to do. Let's say you want to run 100 balls. Let's also assume that you use the "something good has to happen" kind of thinking on clusters once every other rack. So what is an acceptable percentage of success with a shot like this? 4 out of 5 good outcomes? Let's go with that -- 80% success rate on a pot luck break out of a cluster just for argument's sake. You need 7 racks and every other rack you are shooting a shot you have 80% success with (say 3 racks). That means you have a .80x.80x.80 = 51% chance of success, or a 49% chance of getting snookered and ending your run during the course of a 100 ball run. Why mess with these odds when you don't have to?

It would be nice if a Steve Lipsky or Blackjack would add his 2 cents.

I agree with you Dan. I also forgot that you said the 13 can be made from the original position. I would probably use it right away if I were going to shoot it at all. I also think I've been mistaken to look for concavities in piles of balls. I don't know where I got this. Maybe it has to do with the cueball not flying around after impact. But with a heavy pile like this, it's likely to get stuck behind something, and without the insurance ball it may be a run ender, especially after closer inspection of what could happen.

 

[CueAndMe]

i'm glad someone saw this. i thought it was a pretty good idea. the only reason i don't like shooting the 2 first is because it's a pretty good break ball with the 10 as a key ball. and i don't trust myself enough to try to bump another one out

I certainly would have played it that way at the table, but at this point I wonder if we're being a little careless when there may be safer options. I don't know. It makes me want to inspect every cluster more carefully now.