Safety Abuse?

Grilled Cheese, don't get me wrong. If I make a ball on the break and looking at a open table I am not thinking about playing safe. I am thinking about running out. Same can be said at any point during a game where I can see the patern to get out.

Now, when I get out of line I usually first think what can I do to ***k over my opponent before I look at the offensive option. Also, especially in 8ball, you are going to have clusters and not always will you have an oppertunity to break them up. A good safe can force your opponent to do the dirty work for you.

As for the situation I had last night, I know I am not a world class pool ass kicker. The shot was tough and I was looking at a 2-3 rail leave along the long rail. So the chances were low. I'm not sure I would have played it differently against anyone but I absolutely respect your opinion.
 
CONTROL of the TABLE

In other words, as soon as you give up the table - even if by playing safe, you are now rolling the dice. That's how it is in higher level play. Anytime the table is handed over, it's rolling the dice and chance is there. The outcome or the goal of getting back the table is not a sure thing. Not even close. It's in the safety player's FAVOR, but it's no sure thing.
Knowing full well the risks of the safety (kick the ball in, kick and leave you safe, or kick and leave you miserable position), when you option for the safety, those outcomes need to be a reasonable risk to accept because what you're CURRENTLY facing on the run is just as risky or miserable or worse. Now be honest, if the run ahead of you is that bad, go for the safe. But if it is not, you have to go offense. Don't subject the game to your opponent's skills and luck. That is never a good idea.

Yes, balancing the risk is a big part. But, locking up the CB with a ball, leaving only a jacked-up topspin shot at a funny shot downtable when they have to get a breakout or a leave, that's when you're doing the right thing. It's Roy's saying, yes? The one that goes "Some people play to win. Some people play not to lose." For a long time, I thought I was playing to win in a lot of situations, until I thought about it and saw that, in fact, I played many ways to keep my opponent from winning. If you lock up a safe, don't lock up your ball.. play safes that leave you shots from either side of the table in anticipation of a good hit.. just like patterns, learn to recognize safe shot setups in advance. Barbox 8 is my favorite game..
 
safety play is absolutely necessary in 8 ball even more so if you cant get out everyball you take off the table just makes your opponents job easier. Im not takeing balls of the table till i see a way to get out.
 
Grilled Cheese, don't get me wrong. If I make a ball on the break and looking at a open table I am not thinking about playing safe. I am thinking about running out. Same can be said at any point during a game where I can see the patern to get out.

Now, when I get out of line I usually first think what can I do to ***k over my opponent before I look at the offensive option. Also, especially in 8ball, you are going to have clusters and not always will you have an oppertunity to break them up. A good safe can force your opponent to do the dirty work for you.

As for the situation I had last night, I know I am not a world class pool ass kicker. The shot was tough and I was looking at a 2-3 rail leave along the long rail. So the chances were low. I'm not sure I would have played it differently against anyone but I absolutely respect your opinion.



Not at all re: getting you wrong. If the 'out' is tough, and as much risk as whatever luck your opponent might get on their kick after your safe, then it is reasonable to go for the safe.

You said your opponent was also an SL6. Ok, no high level kicking. Not easy BIH either though. Middle of the road. Safeties tend to work better at this level of play.


That ties into my defense of jump cues. Jump cues help to combat the lame roll safeties. That is, the easy rolling of the CB behind an easy obstacle and expecting good odds and results from it. I call those the "APA safes" ...against a good player with a jump cue, that's no safe at all. At best, just a lower percentage shot for them. A high percentage hit.


But that's another topic entirely. I only brought it up to illustrate how things change as the level goes up. I've watched and played in a lot of leagues. It's often easier to execute a safe than it is an out. Doesn't mean it's the right choice always, but that's why it happens. When I would play in a weekly open tournament, which had 3 (sometimes more) pros in it - I would play all out offense. Sink or swim, I was all in on offense. And it would pay off well for me. I tried the safeties against them prior. They kick too damn good. Usually leaving me long and tough. Or, worse, hooked. At which point my inferior kicking just coughs up the table to them. 'APA safes' (basic obstruction) lead to successful jump shots. It's just brutal. That said, if I have a shot - I'm going for it. Because I can win from here/there. I can't win from a return safety where I have to kick. Every inning is absolutely precious. Your time at the table may very well be your last.

The choice is simple, get out or lose. If I am good enough to stick the CB to an obstacle ball or close to sticking it, with a high degree of certainty - I might get the table back. But if it's not a lock up safe like that, forget it. Go for the out. It might be low percentage, but low percentage is better than NO percentage.

But that's against top level players. Which is why I said it's different against different levels.


How about this, if you're thinking the safety was due to weakness or you should have been more aggressive....try your best to remember the pattern. Later in practice, set up the balls and try and get out on them. Try it a few times. See what your percentage was. But downgrade the percentage a little, since subsequent attempts are better due to the practice and trial and error of doing it more than once. In a match, you get one try only.


As an SL6, you're getting close to the point where as your game improves, you're asking these questions of whether to play safe or get out. As that improvement comes, you will want to take on and play higher level players that put more pressure on you to be offensive and get out, or lose. No, safeties are not a crutch. They are part of the game, and no one can be a good or complete player without a good safety game. However, if you find yourself utilizing safeties as an easy way to win BECAUSE the opponents (in the APA) are too weak to kick them successfully, then you ought to start playing better players.


Don't get me wrong, the safety is a tool for victory even for the pros. They can win the game with a good safe. But it's always a risk. I played in the APA, most of the time, a good safe had little risk involved, and would cough up BIH for me. At which point, a good safety was damn near a sure win. That's NOT because of MY strength, but because of my opponents weakness. That's why I brought up the pros earlier in this post. That said, if it's my opponents that completely F-up because they can't kick, the safety becomes an easy way out for me, and that's not good for my game. My game, in order to improve, needs constant pressure.
 
yep... being able to play safe is a part of the game.

especially in league... people should know the rules. I've been known to play safe just because I know it will effect my opponents head... ;)
 
I've was in a 9ball tourney ,where my opponent had a clear 3 out ,and attempted a safety regardless of the easy 3 out opportunity ,, I then kicked in the ball and commenced to out the rack..

I still had 2 racks to win ,and my opponent needed 3 racks,, I mentioned to him well he was racking ,that he should of just took the 3 out ,instead of playing safe,, he got mad, threw the rack under the table,went over and unscrewed his cue,and left.
I just smiled, and walked to the front desk to tell the TD I won.. I off'd my next 2 opponents ,and won 1st for the $250 pot........ :)

Safeties are apart of the game,, but sometimes hiding the rock to much can get you out of your offensive game, which I believe was the case in that scenario..........
 
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Safeties

I have a little saying, 'Play for the game, not the shot'. Sometimes it takes awhile for that to soak into someone's head before they get what I mean by that.

9 years ago in Vegas at the BCA tournament, I was the last shooter on our team, and winning the match would be decided by my game. I and my opponent had 1 ball left uptable with the 8 inbetween our balls on the end head rail. We shot 18 safeties in a row, and finally my opponent rolled a 1/2" too far, and I had a shot and I got out. We won the game and the match, but I was totally depleted after that nerve racking experience.
 
if draging it out yes , bad, if you got no recorse but safety...then play 1000 of them...........OTB

Last night at 8ball pool league I was playing a SL6. I am also a SL6. We were playing a race to 5. I like to think I am a safety oriented player. I hate selling out and like control of the table.

I think on game 7 (we were tied 3-3) I get in a position where I have a couple balls and he is on the 8. I played 3 lock-up safety shots in a row. After the 3rd he starts *****ing at me and says I need to learn how to shoot.

I smiled at him and kindly said I would play 1000 safety shots in a row if I thought it would give me the best odds of winning. I don't think that helped him feel better about it. I could tell he was upset. Probably because he was only getting crappy shape.

Now I might play a little more defensive than some players but this scenario was pretty back and white. I only had a tough shot and if I missed he would win. On top of that he wasn't giving me a ball in hand so I had a similar safety shot each time. I only had to slow roll the cue into the OB on the left side. Cut was possible but why mess with it? The shot and position were tough.

Anyways, I won 5-4 and on the scoresheet I had 12 defensive shots marked (I actually think I had more). I am curious what others thoughts are on this subject? If you know it will frustrate your opposing player is it ok to start playing really tight? Should anybody expect a certain number of defensive shots? Can you go too far with safety play?
 
Last night at 8ball pool league I was playing a SL6. I am also a SL6. We were playing a race to 5. I like to think I am a safety oriented player. I hate selling out and like control of the table.

I think on game 7 (we were tied 3-3) I get in a position where I have a couple balls and he is on the 8. I played 3 lock-up safety shots in a row. After the 3rd he starts *****ing at me and says I need to learn how to shoot.

I smiled at him and kindly said I would play 1000 safety shots in a row if I thought it would give me the best odds of winning. I don't think that helped him feel better about it. I could tell he was upset. Probably because he was only getting crappy shape.

Now I might play a little more defensive than some players but this scenario was pretty back and white. I only had a tough shot and if I missed he would win. On top of that he wasn't giving me a ball in hand so I had a similar safety shot each time. I only had to slow roll the cue into the OB on the left side. Cut was possible but why mess with it? The shot and position were tough.

Anyways, I won 5-4 and on the scoresheet I had 12 defensive shots marked (I actually think I had more). I am curious what others thoughts are on this subject? If you know it will frustrate your opposing player is it ok to start playing really tight? Should anybody expect a certain number of defensive shots? Can you go too far with safety play?

I deal with this in tournaments also, I am playing this one guy and he scratches on the break playing 9b. There are a few balls tied up so I dead nuts hook him with BIH on the 1. His 1st comment was.....Well now I know he cant run out. My response was... Your on 2 fouls
 
Heck, I've never been accused of not playing a lot of safeties. But when those 99% jam up, lock tight safety is staring you in the face, sometimes it's hard not to take it... heck, I like bih as much as the next guy.

The last person that complained, "oh, another friggin safety".... I looked at him straight in the eye, and said, "well, if you ever learn how to kick I"ll stop playing safe"..... he was quiet after that, he was a pretty good player but he could not kick a lick.
 
I used to get bent out of shape about repeated safety play until I realized the biggest reason for that was it was the weakest part of my game and my opponent knew it.

So, improving is all about taking your weakness and making it a strength, hence I really started working on my safety play.

Now, safety battles are fun. Being able to respond back better than what you got tells your opponent you are one well rounded pool player.

Safety battles is also like one up man ship, kinda like thinking "oh, yeah, you think you got me, well then deal with this then."

Whiners are losers when it comes to pool.
 
long long ago in a land not so far away

Long long ago in a land not so far away I was in a bar table battle with someone that was upfront about being a road player. No internet, no cell phones, not much grapevine, I didn't know he was one of the very best. He was also 100% offense.

We started playing cheap as was typical in bars and when we both found we were nip and tuck we didn't raise the bet. I was going head to head, all offense too and we were close. After a couple hours I was down four or five games despite my homefield advantage. I wasn't far behind but he was edging me a game here, a game there. That is when I started mixing in more two way shots and some "accidental" safeties. That was the difference and I finally came out a very little bit ahead.

Playing too many marginal safeties will make a person a loser. Knowing when and how to play safe can make them a winner. I was watching a fairly low level women's tournament awhile back, not the TV stuff. As I watched I couldn't help thinking how tough it would be to play those ladies. Almost all of them would jump on an excellent safety before a decent shot and since they shot a lot of safeties getting plenty of practice they weren't just trying to make safeties they were locking the door and jamming two deadbolts home for good measure!

You should be open to all of the opportunities on the table all the time. Also, whatever you do never ever let your opponent know they are getting under your skin. The best way to shut down safety play is to shoot your way out of the safeties. Even just getting a good hit almost every time can be enough to discourage someone who uses a lot of safety play. They are expecting ball in hand and when they fail to get it over and over they start to feel safety play isn't working.

Hu
 
I have to ask, Why can't people just play the game right and not worry about your rating.

I actually worry about my rating (currently SL6), I want it to go up simply because it is a measure of how good I am over time. The higher the rating, the better people I get to play against, and the more I learn about the holes in my game.
 
I had 12 defensive shots marked (I actually think I had more)

With the skill level limits on APA teams, the lower ranked players typically don't play any defense, don't understand it, don't practice it, whatever.
Since we stick the lower ranked players with the scorekeeping, how can you expect them to score a defensive shot, when they have no idea what a defensive shot is in the first place.

I'm impressed that your scorekeepers know what a safety is, let alone 12, all in the same match...:)

Did you mark the defensive shot?
Was that defensive?
No, I tried to make it, it's not a defensive shot.
I called that as a defensive shot.
No, just because I missed, that doesn't mean it was a defensive shot (my personal favorite)
I've got 6-defensive shots for her, and 3 for him.
I have 12-defensive shots for him, and 1 for her.
 
With the skill level limits on APA teams, the lower ranked players typically don't play any defense, don't understand it, don't practice it, whatever.
Since we stick the lower ranked players with the scorekeeping, how can you expect them to score a defensive shot, when they have no idea what a defensive shot is in the first place.

I'm impressed that your scorekeepers know what a safety is, let alone 12, all in the same match...:)

Did you mark the defensive shot?
Was that defensive?
No, I tried to make it, it's not a defensive shot.
I called that as a defensive shot.
No, just because I missed, that doesn't mean it was a defensive shot (my personal favorite)
I've got 6-defensive shots for her, and 3 for him.
I have 12-defensive shots for him, and 1 for her.


Majority of the time I try to call 'Safe' before I shoot that way they know what my intention is without burning a timeout
 
Majority of the time I try to call 'Safe' before I shoot that way they know what my intention is without burning a timeout

That works for your score, but what about the other guy.
I think that your 2's & 3's are a bunch of sandbagging 6's & 7's...:)
The way to know for sure, is if one of them calls time out when they think you need some coaching.
In the APA, when a 2 coaches a 6, it's an indication that there could be a little sangbagging going on.
 
In the APA, when a 2 coaches a 6, it's an indication that there could be a little sangbagging going on.

I encourage my teammates to call timeouts on me if either they feel that I've missed something or if they simply would like to know what I plan on doing or why. Kinda takes some of the fun out of it when they're just sitting there watching the match and don't get to feel like a part of it or feel too intimidated by the skill level to question anything.
 
Frustrating a player is a good strategic move on your part. All you should worry about is that you made a legal hit. What you choose to do with it is all on you. How your opponent feels about it is irrelevant. Especially in league.

Excellent way to put it. This guy sounds like he was trying to put a move on you by complaining and trying to make you change your game.

I wouldn't give him a second thought.
 
Playing safe is all part of the game. Playing a good safe at the right time can win a lot of games for you. However, I also tell the players on my teams to avoid getting in a protracted safety battle with a better player as you will more often than not lose. If you have a decent chance at getting out do it. The last thing you want to do is let a better player out of his seat. I also feel that you can play safe so often that it eventually ends up affecting your confidence in shot-making.
 
The only people that hate it are the players who have very little patience.Most lower end league players play dumb for the most part and if you show any sign of intelligent play it short circuits there brains and causes them to get really pissed off cause your not playing as stupid as they are.
 
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