Safety Abuse?

[TheNewSharkster]

That works for your score, but what about the other guy.
I think that your 2's & 3's are a bunch of sandbagging 6's & 7's...
The way to know for sure, is if one of them calls time out when they think you need some coaching.
In the APA, when a 2 coaches a 6, it's an indication that there could be a little sangbagging going on.

I don't know about that. I had a SL3 call a timeout on me because he thought I didn't see something. No sandbagging he is a real SL3

 

[TheNewSharkster]

The only people that hate it are the players who have very little patience.Most lower end league players play dumb for the most part and if you show any sign of intelligent play it short circuits there brains and causes them to get really pissed off cause your not playing as stupid as they are.

HAHA!:thumbup:

 

[The Renfro]

Basically this type of play totally kills 8ball from having any aspect of watch-ability for spectators..... Sure you won but doesn't it feel like you just kissed your sister?

Safety play in 8ball is the easiest of all skill sets to learn... all you need is a ball you can lag up to close to the rail and you can pretty much play lock down at any time.......

I'd say 3 safes in a row by any player without an offensive attempt should lead to a stalemate with a rerack and the player not playing the 3 safes getting the break.......

 

[Banks]

Basically this type of play totally kills 8ball from having any aspect of watch-ability for spectators..... Sure you won but doesn't it feel like you just kissed your sister?

Safety play in 8ball is the easiest of all skill sets to learn... all you need is a ball you can lag up to close to the rail and you can pretty much play lock down at any time.......

I'd say 3 safes in a row by any player without an offensive attempt should lead to a stalemate with a rerack and the player not playing the 3 safes getting the break.......

Good, let's play.. I'll safe up, you try to run out. I'll make sure I bunt convincingly to a pocket, or maybe even make a shot before hooking again after two previous safes. We aren't debating watchability.. because pool doesn't really have any. If I wanna watch something, I've got the highest strip club per capita town right here in Portland. :thumbup:

 

[Drew]

Safety play works for awhile, but as your opponents get better and better, the safe gets weaker and weaker. Ask yourself: would you rather play a guy who runs out from everywhere, or a guy who makes 3 balls and ducks?

When safeties become excessive, I know you can't win. Let a good player kick at enough balls, he's gonna make it eventually...or put you in a spot where you're kicking at balls. The best players are 99% offensive because they never want to give up the table. Even 1hole is becoming a game of firepower. I guess, if your goal is to beat the average league player, then safeties will work most of the time. But running out works against all players, all the time.

 

[MSchaffer]

With the skill level limits on APA teams, the lower ranked players typically don't play any defense, don't understand it, don't practice it, whatever.
Since we stick the lower ranked players with the scorekeeping, how can you expect them to score a defensive shot, when they have no idea what a defensive shot is in the first place.

Why do you stick them with the score keeping? Doesn't everyone take turns?

 

[Banks]

Safety play works for awhile, but as your opponents get better and better, the safe gets weaker and weaker. Ask yourself: would you rather play a guy who runs out from everywhere, or a guy who makes 3 balls and ducks?

When safeties become excessive, I know you can't win. Let a good player kick at enough balls, he's gonna make it eventually...or put you in a spot where you're kicking at balls. The best players are 99% offensive because they never want to give up the table. Even 1hole is becoming a game of firepower. I guess, if your goal is to beat the average league player, then safeties will work most of the time. But running out works against all players, all the time.

I'd rather play somebody that doesn't play safeties and tries to run out all of the time.. it makes winning a lot easier.

Do the pros play safeties? Ok, I know that's not a fair question.. because they'd be stupid not to. That oughta answer the question. Anything in excess is bad.. play well, but play smart.

Edit.. yeah, you need to be able to come with shots to win 1P more often, but find a winning player that's 99% offense. Heck, I'd like to hear just what % of plays are even honest attempts at pocketing even in the DCC. Accu-stats, anyone?

 

[mrinsatiable]

In league play..you should never worry about what others think. Play your game and take home the "win".

When you play advance players...they know how to kick/jump out of your safe and either lock you up in their safe or run out.

Cornerman's absolutely right about the better players running out in 8 ball. It's a beautiful thing to watch.

Watch the pros play 8ball on youtube then you'll understand.

 

[Banks]

When you play advance players...they know how to kick/jump out of your safe and either lock you up in their safe or run out.

If the safes that are done are that simple, then they need to learn how to really safe up..

A simple example..

Bunt a ball over near a pocket when you have a couple of other balls up-table and lock them up on the backside of their own ball with the rest of theirs also up-table. If you can lock it so that they're straight up and down(don't be stupid and lock em up tight aiming at a pocket), they're gonna squirm.

There's a big difference between simply blocking a view or something of that basic nature and a real lockdown that requires an amazing return by your opponent to prevent an out.

 

[mrinsatiable]

Getting lock up safes are just as hard as getting out of them.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

In league play..you should never worry about what others think. Play your game and take home the "win".

When you play advance players...they know how to kick/jump out of your safe and either lock you up in their safe or run out.

Cornerman's absolutely right about the better players running out in 8 ball. It's a beautiful thing to watch.

Watch the pros play 8ball on youtube then you'll understand.

For some reason your post reminded me of Color of Money match between Efren and Earl. If memory serves me correct, at one point after missing position on the 9ball, Efren played a safe and left a long bank shot. Not a lock up safe. Earl could see it all day. The question was could he bank it in. He missed it and Efren got out from a marginal safety play. These are two of the best players in the world and even they aren't above solid defensive strategy.

 

[Drew]

I'd rather play somebody that doesn't play safeties and tries to run out all of the time.. it makes winning a lot easier.

Do the pros play safeties? Ok, I know that's not a fair question.. because they'd be stupid not to. That oughta answer the question. Anything in excess is bad.. play well, but play smart.

Edit.. yeah, you need to be able to come with shots to win 1P more often, but find a winning player that's 99% offense. Heck, I'd like to hear just what % of plays are even honest attempts at pocketing even in the DCC. Accu-stats, anyone?

So you'd rather a play someone that misses...GREAT!! Me too!! But that's not what I'm talking about. Would you rather play a run-out player who doesn't miss, or a safety player who doesn't miss?

Do the pros play safeties? Of course they do.
Do the pros like to play safeties? Hell no. They'd rather run out.

As for 1p, it's supposed to be a defensive game. For someone like me, 1p is 90% defensive. But I can name a few champions who approach the 50/50 split. Now think of bank pool, which is a very offensive game. How many bank champions can you name who frequently play safe? It's because even perfect safes can lose the game. Perfect run outs will always win.

Yes...ducking will win the weekly league matches and maybe the weekly tournaments. But playing better pool means getting out more...as opposed to playing safe more.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

So you'd rather a play someone that misses...GREAT!! Me too!! But that's not what I'm talking about. Would you rather play a run-out player who doesn't miss, or a safety player who doesn't miss?

Do the pros play safeties? Of course they do.
Do the pros like to play safeties? Hell no. They'd rather run out.

As for 1p, it's supposed to be a defensive game. For someone like me, 1p is 90% defensive. But I can name a few champions who approach the 50/50 split. Now think of bank pool, which is a very offensive game. How many bank champions can you name who frequently play safe? It's because even perfect safes can lose the game. Perfect run outs will always win.

Yes...ducking will win the weekly league matches and maybe the weekly tournaments. But playing better pool means getting out more...as opposed to playing safe more.

Are you saying you should shoot the low percent shot? I am not a pro and miss position. Everyone does. When that happens a lot of the time the likelyhood of making a shot goes down. So why not play the better odds and shoot a safety shot? Its like getting a 7 2 in texas holdem and playing it just so you can get better at poker. At some point you have to weigh the risk versus the reward.

Obviously as my game improves I won't need to play as many safety but at the end of the day the layout of the table is what dictates whether or not I play safe. I can be the best in the world and still know the best move and from time to time that is playing the D.

 

[Drew]

Are you saying you should shoot the low percent shot? I am not a pro and miss position. Everyone does. When that happens a lot of the time the likelyhood of making a shot goes down. So why not play the better odds and shoot a safety shot? Its like getting a 7 2 in texas holdem and playing it just so you can get better at poker. At some point you have to weigh the risk versus the reward.

Obviously as my game improves I won't need to play as many safety but at the end of the day the layout of the table is what dictates whether or not I play safe. I can be the best in the world and still know the best move and from time to time that is playing the D.

Nope...I'm saying play safe when you have to, but anything more jeopardizes the game.

Let's say you're playing a good player on a bar table. You break and make a couple balls. You play safe on the 3. He kicks it in and runs out. Then he breaks and runs out. Then he breaks, plays safe. You kick and get a lucky safe. He kicks it in and runs out. Then he breaks dry. You're looking at tough cut or an easy safe, but the safe leaves a 1rail kick. What would you do?

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Nope...I'm saying play safe when you have to, but anything more jeopardizes the game.

Let's say you're playing a good player on a bar table. You break and make a couple balls. You play safe on the 3. He kicks it in and runs out. Then he breaks and runs out. Then he breaks, plays safe. You kick and get a lucky safe. He kicks it in and runs out. Then he breaks dry. You're looking at tough cut or an easy safe, but the safe leaves a 1rail kick. What would you do?

I guess it depends on how close the OB is to the pocket. If its a duck I would rather take my chances on making the shot. Now if I thought his chances were less than 50% of making the ball *and* my chances of making my ball were less than 50% I think I would just go for the safety.

 

[ShootingArts]

forced safety vs a planned safety

I guess it depends on how close the OB is to the pocket. If its a duck I would rather take my chances on making the shot. Now if I thought his chances were less than 50% of making the ball *and* my chances of making my ball were less than 50% I think I would just go for the safety.

I'm quoting the last post but actually talking to both of you in this safety vs runout discussion. There is a huge difference between a forced safety and a planned safety. When I gambled nightly many of my innings ended with a safety that I had planned before I shot the first ball in my run. There is a great deal of difference between a safety that you resort to as the lesser of two evils and a planned safety that you set up and played shape for to begin with. Planned safeties have a far higher success percentage and they are usually much stronger safeties also.

Safety play of this type is one of the reasons that spots don't mean as much as they seem to. The better player doesn't only have superior physical skills, he is often thinking on a different level than the player getting the spot.

I'm not the player I once was and don't usually tackle the really strong players anymore. However I'll choose playing the strong players over the "lucky" ones any day!

Hu

 

[Banks]

So you'd rather a play someone that misses...GREAT!! Me too!! But that's not what I'm talking about. Would you rather play a run-out player who doesn't miss, or a safety player who doesn't miss?

Do the pros play safeties? Of course they do.
Do the pros like to play safeties? Hell no. They'd rather run out.

As for 1p, it's supposed to be a defensive game. For someone like me, 1p is 90% defensive. But I can name a few champions who approach the 50/50 split. Now think of bank pool, which is a very offensive game. How many bank champions can you name who frequently play safe? It's because even perfect safes can lose the game. Perfect run outs will always win.

Yes...ducking will win the weekly league matches and maybe the weekly tournaments. But playing better pool means getting out more...as opposed to playing safe more.

I'd rather not play anyone that doesn't make mistakes. The game gets a bit difficult that way.

Uhh.. everybody would rather run out, so that's besides the point.

Perfect runouts always win in everything, because it's the quickest, surest way to win when your opponent doesn't get a chance to respond. Too bad the world's not perfect, but neither are nearly all of the pool players out there. Do you think somebody that's going to be playing pros and top shortstops is going to come on here asking for help on runouts vs. safeties? Not likely.

Short rack banks is a bit of both, but full rack is pretty heavy on the defense.

Nope...I'm saying play safe when you have to, but anything more jeopardizes the game.

Let's say you're playing a good player on a bar table. You break and make a couple balls. You play safe on the 3. He kicks it in and runs out. Then he breaks and runs out. Then he breaks, plays safe. You kick and get a lucky safe. He kicks it in and runs out. Then he breaks dry. You're looking at tough cut or an easy safe, but the safe leaves a 1rail kick. What would you do?

That was all I'm saying. A well-played safe is worth a lot. He kicks it in, runs 500 racks, buys penny stock in the next Facebook before it's popular, wins the Super Bowl and climbs Mount Everest - I get the point. Lemme know how often that happens outside of pros and top shortstops. And either they made a hell of a kick, or your safe sucks.

 

[Stones]

Last night at 8ball pool league I was playing a SL6. I am also a SL6. We were playing a race to 5. I like to think I am a safety oriented player. I hate selling out and like control of the table.

I think on game 7 (we were tied 3-3) I get in a position where I have a couple balls and he is on the 8. I played 3 lock-up safety shots in a row. After the 3rd he starts *****ing at me and says I need to learn how to shoot.

I smiled at him and kindly said I would play 1000 safety shots in a row if I thought it would give me the best odds of winning. I don't think that helped him feel better about it. I could tell he was upset. Probably because he was only getting crappy shape.

Now I might play a little more defensive than some players but this scenario was pretty back and white. I only had a tough shot and if I missed he would win. On top of that he wasn't giving me a ball in hand so I had a similar safety shot each time. I only had to slow roll the cue into the OB on the left side. Cut was possible but why mess with it? The shot and position were tough.

Anyways, I won 5-4 and on the scoresheet I had 12 defensive shots marked (I actually think I had more). I am curious what others thoughts are on this subject? If you know it will frustrate your opposing player is it ok to start playing really tight? Should anybody expect a certain number of defensive shots? Can you go too far with safety play?

As a friend of mine used to say, "I'd better learn to play safe cuz I don't know how to run out."

Stones

 

[Drew]

I guess it depends on how close the OB is to the pocket. If its a duck I would rather take my chances on making the shot. Now if I thought his chances were less than 50% of making the ball *and* my chances of making my ball were less than 50% I think I would just go for the safety.

That's why it's possible to lose without ever missing a shot. Your safety in rack 1 cost you 3 games. This clown is kicking in balls left and right, and you're considering leaving him an easy kick?

Let's just say the odds of him making the ball and/or getting safe is 50%. If you assume 50% on every safety you play, then your odds decrease by half each time you play a successful safe.

I'm going to assume that you will play at least 1 safety per rack.

Since he is a run out player, you can assume he will shoot at low percentage shots. So let's assume that of the balls he misses, there is a 50% chance that he leaves you a shot. The other 50%, you'll be playing safe (because you're a safety player).

So here's what I see: 1 out of 4 times that he misses, he will win (because 50% you're playing safe, and he makes something happen 50% of kicks). 1 out of 4 times that you get the first shot, he will win (because you will play safe and he has a 50% chance of making it or getting safe; you have a 50% chance of getting safe off his lucky safe). So now, he's winning 2 out of 4 games and you haven't missed a ball yet. Your misses will tip the scale in his favor, the more you miss, the better his odds.

 

[Drew]

That was all I'm saying. A well-played safe is worth a lot. He kicks it in, runs 500 racks, buys penny stock in the next Facebook before it's popular, wins the Super Bowl and climbs Mount Everest - I get the point. Lemme know how often that happens outside of pros and top shortstops. And either they made a hell of a kick, or your safe sucks.

On a bar table? Happens all the time. I'm not talking about pros. C players can kick a ball in (lucky) and run out. Top shortstops don't kicking to get lucky. You don't usually like the results when a pro kicks out of your "great" safe. B players or better, I'm not playing safe unless I have to.