"sand bagging" Yes or No ?

Beware_of_Dawg

..................
Silver Member
Settle a discussion...

And this is APA related (or perhaps any league).

"sandbagging"- Yes or No?.

1. Knowing that by playing "safe" you lose that inning. Would you consider it sand bagging if when you play, you intentionally take (and most definetely try to make) very difficult lower % shots as opposed to making the right strategic play which would be to play safe?

2. Two way shots. In the same vein as the last question, would it be considered sandbagging in your eyes if when someone shoots they are trying to make a very difficult shot perhaps a very tough combo, or multi rail bank knowing that if they miss (AND THEY ARE defineately NOT trying to miss, The person has EVERY intention of trying to make the shot) but they know, that if they miss they are very likely to be "safe" ? So are two way shots marked "safeties" and by not mentioning them a person is "sand bagging"?
 
I would answer NO to both. Not sandbagging if you are trying to make a shot. The rest is stratagy
 
If its an intentional safe mark it. Its the only way to cut their innings down. Bad misses only count as innings. Most people don't understand how the apa rating works, so they think they are "sandbagging" by purposefully missing shots or taking the wrong shot. I have a bad habit of only playing as good as my opponent.
 
Settle a discussion...

And this is APA related (or perhaps any league).

"sandbagging"- Yes or No?.

1. Knowing that by playing "safe" you lose that inning. Would you consider it sand bagging if when you play, you intentionally take (and most definetely try to make) very difficult lower % shots as opposed to making the right strategic play which would be to play safe?

2. Two way shots. In the same vein as the last question, would it be considered sandbagging in your eyes if when someone shoots they are trying to make a very difficult shot perhaps a very tough combo, or multi rail bank knowing that if they miss (AND THEY ARE defineately NOT trying to miss, The person has EVERY intention of trying to make the shot) but they know, that if they miss they are very likely to be "safe" ? So are two way shots marked "safeties" and by not mentioning them a person is "sand bagging"?

1 - Yes
2 - No

The first one is sandbagging because it's changing your game specifically to manipulate the number of innings on the score sheet. The second one is not; two-way shots are a good strategic play, and most players take them whenever they can, regardless of the score sheet.

-Andrew
 
1 - Yes
2 - No

The first one is sandbagging because it's changing your game specifically to manipulate the number of innings on the score sheet. The second one is not; two-way shots are a good strategic play, and most players take them whenever they can, regardless of the score sheet.

-Andrew

Ok, so let's expand on that. What if the straight forward "safe" is also a lower % safe ? Most people don't appreciate that in many cases (most) playing a good safety is very difficult and takes either a great cueball control or very precise speed control and many times takes both. So, is it still sandbagging in your opinion if it's a 50/50 safety, let's say if you execute it perfectly you leave no shot for your opponent or a very very difficult shot for them, but if you miss it they have a clear hit or even a clear shot & run and you choose to take the very difficult shot as opposed to the very difficult safety?
 
Good APA video describing this with examples

Settle a discussion...

And this is APA related (or perhaps any league).

"sandbagging"- Yes or No?.

1. Knowing that by playing "safe" you lose that inning. Would you consider it sand bagging if when you play, you intentionally take (and most definetely try to make) very difficult lower % shots as opposed to making the right strategic play which would be to play safe?

This is most definitely NOT sandbagging. You're going full-bore for the runout, "caution to the wind" so-to-speak, knowing that if you miss, you will be leaving your opponent with a shot. I don't know how someone would consider this "sandbagging." Unless, perhaps, they're considering it "reverse sandbagging" -- i.e. by going for a runout, even when a runout is not there, that one is "playing the lemon" and trying to demonstrate lack of strategic knowledge or something?

LATE EDIT: the above is assuming that a person just doesn't "see" the opportunity for a safety play, and instead goes full bore for a low-percentage shot when a clear runout doesn't exist (i.e. in bar-banger style). If, however, one is avoiding a safety/defensive call by going for a low-percentage shot, and is merely trying to pass his/her turn at the table to his/her opponent for the purposes of running up innings (see Example 8 at 11:00 mins in the below video), that is most definitely marked a defensive shot, even though he/she is being evasive by trying to avoid calling a safety/defensive shot.

2. Two way shots. In the same vein as the last question, would it be considered sandbagging in your eyes if when someone shoots they are trying to make a very difficult shot perhaps a very tough combo, or multi rail bank knowing that if they miss (AND THEY ARE defineately NOT trying to miss, The person has EVERY intention of trying to make the shot) but they know, that if they miss they are very likely to be "safe" ? So are two way shots marked "safeties" and by not mentioning them a person is "sand bagging"?

This shot is actually demonstrated in Terry Bell's video:

"Understanding defensive shots while playing pool in the APA Pool League"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wzfvYHM3CEs

In the video, go to:

  1. Example 2 [@4:00 mins]
  2. Example 5 [@7:00 mins]
  3. Example 9 [@11:38 mins]
All good examples of where a person was not trying to miss, but the shot is still marked as a safety/defensive shot.

Hope that helps!
-Sean
 
Last edited:
How often does this come up? If it comes up in every game and it leads to a loss of that set then he is not helping his team and I doubt that they will make the playoffs if everyone on the team did that. If it is only a few times it won't matter because only the best scores are used. It is very hard for someone to move down if they have a lot of established games.

The other captain also has to be paying attention and mark down a safe if he thinks it is not a honest attempt to make a shot. But that is also a fine line because everyone misses and not on purpose.
 
Last edited:
This shot is actually demonstrated in Terry Bell's video:

"Understanding defensive shots while playing pool in the APA Pool League"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wzfvYHM3CEs

In the video, go to:

  1. Example 2 [@4:00 mins]
  2. Example 5 [@7:00 mins]
  3. Example 9 [@11:38 mins]
All good examples of where a person was not trying to miss, but the shot is still marked as a safety/defensive shot.

Hope that helps!
-Sean

Thank you Sean, I appreciate you providing the video. With all due respect, Generally speaking my opinion of what constitutes a "defensive" shot does not always mesh with what the APA might like for you to consider defensive. They are a business who directly profits from raising skill levels, they want it, they need it. There can be nothing and no one that is more directly bias about it. Quite frankly, the APA would like nothing better than to have every shot marked as defensive if you miss. Obviously that is a dramatization, but none the less you understand why I might want to form my own opinion using other "players" thoughts on what is or isn't a "safety". Again, with all due respect to your opinion and their opinions, I think that on the whole they are a fair organization. They do what they can with what they have. Im just discussing "player" opinions here.

P.S. I play 9 ball exclusively, if that alters anyone's thoughts.
 
Last edited:
This is most definitely NOT sandbagging. You're going full-bore for the runout, "caution to the wind" so-to-speak, knowing that if you miss, you will be leaving your opponent with a shot. I don't know how someone would consider this "sandbagging."

LATE EDIT: the above is assuming that a person just doesn't "see" the opportunity for a safety play, and instead goes full bore for a low-percentage shot when a clear runout doesn't exist (i.e. in bar-banger style).

Yes, that's exactly what I mean... First example I gave is going "foot on the gas". Not looking for or identifying any defensive anything. Taking nothing but shots regardless of how tough they are. Now this is also understanding that the player in question is capable of understanding the table and knowing how to play defensively if they choose to do it. But, they don't. The first example is that... just not playing safe, ever. Going for it, period.
 
It's all good

Thank you Sean, I appreciate you providing the video. With all due respect, Generally speaking my opinion of what constitutes a "defensive" shot does not always mesh with what the APA might like for you to consider defensive. They are a business who directly profits from raising skill levels, they want it, they need it. There can be nothing and no one that is more directly bias about it. Quite frankly, the APA would like nothing better than to have every shot marked as defensive if you miss. Obviously that is a dramatization, but none the less you understand why I might want to form my own opinion using other "players" thoughts on what is or isn't a "safety". Again, with all due respect.

Dawg:

No disrespect taken, don't worry. All's good. :)

I see your point, and personally, I don't agree with a lot of the APA thinking / practices, either. A good buddy of mine plays on two different APA teams, and he commonly summons me up to the Eastern Regionals to help keep score (I'm an experienced league operator, that ran the Boston Billiards league system at the now-defunct Danbury, CT, Boston Billiards branch for many years before it closed). I'm familiar with the APA score-keeping system, and I'm known to "interpret" the spirit of rules correctly (because I've "been there" on rules committees myself, and I know what was the "intent" of the rule, regardless of how the verbiage of the rule can [either mistakenly or intentionally/maliciously] be misinterpreted).

Dawg, while creating your own interpretation of what constitutes defensive play/safeties, you'll run up against other people, who'll leverage the system any way they can. And they'll use this video against you, if the purpose is to "hide" safety play behind two-way shots.

In games like 8-ball and 9-ball, I think two-way shots are part of the strategy. The league I play in on my "funsie league" night (Tuesday nights), a traveling league called the "Danbury Billiards Association," has call pocket / call safety rules, and two-way shots are considered part of the game (they are encouraged, in fact!). One is not penalized for knowledge of the strategy of the game by calling safety or playing two-way shots in my league. My players have a lot of fun in this league, and learning the strategy of the game is part and parcel of this league.

So you can see how my personal stance is radically different from the APA way of thinking. But at the same time, I do know that in the end, rules are rules, and regardless of personal intent, rule abidance wins (read: someone marking a defensive shot against a two-way shot will win the argument, unless it can be proven otherwise).

Is the APA a business? It sure as heck is, and self-preservation / self-reproduction/growth is part of the business. It's no doubt its rules are crafted to ensure this. I personally think that if one's own stance on gameplay/strategy conflicts with the way APA plays the game -- i.e. APA rules -- one shouldn't play in the APA (it's an uphill battle that that single person will not win). That's why I personally choose not to. I'll help keep score, I'll help players properly interpret rules, I'll unbiasedly watch hits, etc. (because I have a rep as a good referee), but I won't play in that league.

Hope this helps,
-Sean
 
Last edited:
Dawg, while creating your own interpretation of what constitutes defensive play/safeties, you'll run up against other people, who'll leverage the system any way they can. And they'll use this video against you, if the purpose is to "hide" safety play behind two-way shots.

Honestly, What other people to do leverage the system is not that important to me. It is what it is, and I seldom get upset about it.

I'm not advocating "hiding" anything, that's why I asked other people's opinions. Im curious what other people's (ie; players) opinions are.

I understand that there is lots of "grey" area that is strictly interpretive... and that's what Im asking. What's your(all you guys) interpretation?

As I understand it, and have been beaten up by fliers in every packet of every weeks scoresheets with... it's about "intent"... DId the person indend to make a ball ? In both cases above, absolutely. Everything else would seem secondary, the person in both cases have every intention of making a ball. Now in case two, there intent also had a contingecy plan. KNowing that if they did miss, they would likely be safe. In case one I mentioned, that is absolutely spot on what someone else said earlier... this person chooses to play with blinders on, full bore, pedal to the metal, make every shot. Dont think safe ever. When He/She misses a rediculous shot, and the result is the opponent is left with no shot either, was that a marked "safe" ?
 
Last edited:
Honestly, What other people to do leverage the system is not that important to me. It is what it is, and I seldom get upset about it.

I'm not advocating "hiding" anything, that's why I asked other people's opinions. Im curious what other people's (ie; players) opinions are.

I understand that there is lots of "grey" area that is strictly interpretive... and that's what Im asking. What's your(all you guys) interpretation?

As I understand it, and have been beaten up by fliers in every packet of every weeks scoresheets with... it's about "intent"... DId the person indend to make a ball ? In both cases above, absolutely. Everything else would seem secondary, the person in both cases have every intention of making a ball. Now in case two, there intent also had a contingecy plan. KNowing that if they did miss, they would likely be safe. In case one I mentioned, that is absolutely spot on what someone else said earlier... this person chooses to play with blinders on, full bore, pedal to the metal, make every shot. Dont think safe ever. When He/She misses a rediculous shot, and the result is the opponent is left with no shot either, was that a marked "safe" ?

Dawg:

Wow, that latter situation -- the pedal to the metal situation -- is a judgment call. I would think if the person is a low skill-level player (going strictly by his/her APA skill-level), and they shot a full-bore shot that just luckily ended-up safe for his/her opponent, then no, I wouldn't mark that as a defensive shot. It's unfortunate, yes, that this stroke of luck entered the game, but it is what it is. No sport is without "strokes of luck" or "beginner's luck."

But since you mention you play exclusively 9-ball, if, say, a 7/8/9 skill-level player did that, I would think that a player of that skill level would have at least a basic or passing knowledge of where that cue ball "could" end up (the thought *had* to enter his/her mind as a 7/8/9 in 9-ball when shooting that shot), and therefore would mark that as a defensive shot.

Just my humble opinion, based on the "spirit" of APA's defensive shot rules.
-Sean
 
APA defensive shots

the gentleman who runs our local APA league stopped by last week and i took the opportunity to ask him what we should do when we knew a good player was missing on purpose (we had a guy miss a pretty easy cut in the side by a full diamond, when we know he is a really good shot) and he said that if you have any question about whether a shot was missed intentionally or not, mark it as a safety on your sheet. when the sheets show up at the league office, and the safeties dont match they do the following:

- if they are close (say 5 safeties on one sheet and 3 on the other) they average them (in this case, it would be 4).

- if they are wildly divergent (say 5 on one sheet and 0 on the other) they go with the 5 and assume the other player was dumping.

now, i dont know if this is what they really do, nor do i know how they determine whether a team is messing with players from other teams by jacking up safeties, but he did say that the patterns are pretty obvious when you look at scores over a season...

i just though what he had to say was fascinating, as i was under the impression that innings and safeties had to be the same on both sheets, but he said safeties dont have to match...
 
1 - Yes
2 - No

The first one is sandbagging because it's changing your game specifically to manipulate the number of innings on the score sheet.

-Andrew

And suppose in the first one you choose not to shoot the 'ducks' because you find it more advantageous to get the 'difficult' ball out by trying a hard shot while the opposing player has a lot of soldiers still on the table - as do you possibly.

God, I used to hate numnuts marking safes because for some idiotic reason they thought it was safe, or sandbagging as in your case.
 
It's simple. Everyone has a little mental calculator that figures out risk and reward and comes up with a "best" shot.

If you ever play less than the "best" shot, ESPECIALLY if there's intent to keep from moving up, that's sandbagging.

Doesn't matter is the shot is still 2nd-best, or still "95% just as good", or still reasonably smart and safe. You're stalling. There's no honest excuse for it in league.
 
It's simple. Everyone has a little mental calculator that figures out risk and reward and comes up with a "best" shot.

That's not true. WIth lower skill level players that calculator you mention just doesn't exist. Trust me, I wish it did in most cases. More times than not, they make poor choices.

With higher skill level players, and this is dependant on the player... they do in some degree or another. I see higher skill level players make poor or at worst, not well thought out choices too.

I can't speak for other players, but I suspect Im right in saying that the calculator can be shut off, or completely ignored. Knowing that, is it your contention that not thinking a shot through or taking the time to weigh out what the best strategic move is and just taking a shot you think you can make regardless of difficulty is sandbagging? I'm playing devil's advocate here, and giving you 100% honest intention of the shooter in question.
 
Taking responsibility/accountability for one's actions as a high skill-level player

That's not true. WIth lower skill level players that calculator you mention just doesn't exist. Trust me, I wish it did in most cases. More times than not, they make poor choices.

With higher skill level players, and this is dependant on the player... they do in some degree or another. I see higher skill level players make poor or at worst, not well thought out choices too.

I can't speak for other players, but I suspect Im right in saying that the calculator can be shut off, or completely ignored. Knowing that, is it your contention that not thinking a shot through or taking the time to weigh out what the best strategic move is and just taking a shot you think you can make regardless of difficulty is sandbagging? I'm playing devil's advocate here, and giving you 100% honest intention of the shooter in question.

Dawg:

(Sorry to be weighing in so much on this thread. :o )

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're trying to ask the question this way:

1. Should a player who possesses that mental risk/reward calculator (i.e. a high skill-level) be labeled a "sandbagger" if he/she chooses to completely turn-off that mental calculator and "go for broke" for an entire rack/game/match?

-- And/Or --

2. Should a player who possesses that mental risk/reward calculator (i.e. a high skill-level) be penalized with a marked defensive shot, if he/she chose to not utilize that mental calculator and ended up with a slopped safe for his/her opponent?

Humbly, I think the answer to question 1 is a "NO" and the answer to question 2 is a "YES."

While we are not mind readers and cannot reliably guess what is going through a player's mind before or after a shot, the bottom-line is what the player actually chose to do and did. Did the player possess that mental calculator, and choose to turn it off (in other words, did this player have the OPTION, unlike a lower skill-level player, to turn off a skill he/she had)? Yes, he/she did. Should the player have to pony-up to the bar and pay the consequences for turning off that skill set? Yes, I believe he/she should. If a higher skill-level player either intentionally turns-off that risk/reward calculator, or else has a brain fart, should he/she be held responsible and accountable for it? Absolutely -- that was something that was under that player's control, via his/her demonstrated high skill-level / past performance.

Good players always have occasional brain farts. It happens. But they should also accept responsibility for them, because they *do* possess the counter knowledge of what should've been done.

Again, IMHO. I hope others weigh-in on this,
-Sean
 
All very well and valid points discussed thusfar. However lets first analyze the rule according to the APA Handbook.

Here are some typical situations that are considered Defensive Shots:
¨ A player does not have what he feels is a makeable shot and decides to leave his
opponent in a difficult situation rather than attempt a bad shot.
¨ A player shoots one of his object balls softly up near a corner to block his opponent,
therefore not intending to make the ball.
¨ A player is well ahead in a game or match and decides to purposely miss a few shots.
This is unethical and is a form of cheating, called sandbagging, which could disqualify a
player or team. The way to prevent sandbagging is to mark these Defensive Shots. If
every member did so, no one would bother to sandbag. It would be pointless.
Here are some examples that are NOT Defensive Shots:
¨ A beginner/weak player misses shots while trying to make them.
¨ A player is left with a virtually impossible shot but does the best he can to try to make it
anyway.
¨ A player is left “hooked” (or “snookered”), hidden in such a manner that he is unable to
shoot directly at one of his object balls. He “kicks” as best he can, but doesn’t make
contact with one of his balls. The scorekeeper must then decide the player’s INTENT.
Did he shoot hard enough to make the ball if he had made contact, (which could NOT be
considered a Defensive Shot) or did he shoot just hard enough to get the ball to go to a
rail to avoid giving up ball-in-hand (which IS a Defensive Shot)? This is a judgment call.
The common theme is Intent. As the scorekeeper you have to make the judgement that a shooter intends to miss or make a shot. Historically, as the degree of difficulty goes up on a shot, the less likely the player is actually intending to make the particular shot.

Obvious signs of intent are:
1. Lining up to make a shot on an object ball.
2. Determining angles for bank/kick shots with the ultimate aim of sinking the object ball.

But what about player who purposefully misses shots??? This becomes harder to judge as a player can follow the obvious signs of intent and still miss a shot. At this point, you as the scorekeeper have to bear in mind the factors leading up to the shot. What is the score? How many innings are there? What is the layout of the table? What is the skill level of both players? How are both players shooting?

Couple these questions with your own knowledge of the game and your teammates knowledge of the game and you should be able to find a consensus of whether the shot was defensive or not.

With that in mind. Let's look at the objective of a standard APA game of 8-ball. The objective is to, legally, pocket (or sink) your balls and the 8-ball in order to win the game and ultimately the match. However, that is not how 8-ball is played. 8-ball is played so that while you are legally pocketing your balls, you are making it more difficult for your opponent to accomplish the same.

As to the points made with objectively choosing to shoot a lower percentage shot when a higher percentage shot is available, this just speaks to skill level and an understanding of the lay of the table. As a 2 or a 3 may take a "duck" simply because they know they can make the shot, a 6 or a 7 may leave the "duck" because at a point later in the run that "duck" prevents their opponent from running the rack (in case of a miss) or the "duck" presents an opportunity for better shape (in case of missed shape during the current run-out).

By the same token, a 2 or a 3 may shoot at a cluster of balls (breaking their opponents balls out) all for the sake of a good hit. While a 6 or a 7 may shoot at a cluster of balls (breaking their opponents balls out) all for the sake of setting up an impending run-out.

So the argument that shots on lower percentage shots when higher percentage shots represent a clear indicator of sand-bagging is shaky at best.

Either way, you have to determine the players "intent" as the scorekeeper and objectively score defensive shots based upon your knowledge of the game. And never, ever, change what you have marked as a defensive shot, simply because the player in question states that it wasn't a defensive shot. Just because I legally contacted an object ball that sent another ball around the table that caromed into an opponents ball and ended up close to a pocket does not mean that I actually intended to make the shot. Chances are, I just got lucky.

-saige-
 
another wrench in the gears

With the exception of the " two way" shot, I think the video is a pretty good tool for determining intent. IMHO the 2 way shot is the most difficult to interpret. I hear a very convincing arguement......2 way shots always begin with the intent of making a ball.....with a safe leave being gravy. Then you get a player that has the ability to "make it close" they can shoot an object ball near enough to look like an attempt to pocket.....when the real intent of the shot is designed with cue ball positioning in mind. This type of 2 way is often encountered in the opening stages of the game. Shoot the first ball near a pocket to satisfy the intent question and perhaps end up blocking that pocket while breaking up a cluster......this is the hardest judgement call....IMHO
 
Back
Top