Sandbagger!

What I don't understand about sandbaggers is how they can spend several hours in a pool hall deliberately dogging it to get a better handicap.

It isn't an ethical thing for me because pool is legendary for unethical behavior, but I can think of many better ways to spend my time.
 
There is no such thing as a "perfect handicap system".
Handicaps will favor one quality of player or the other. A sandbagger will almost cease to exist once a player has a substantial history. The phrase, "I'm having an off night" doesn't hold water when it happens week after week.

It's up to the players to balance there handicap system out so lower quality players has a chance to win. Without that chance, players will simply drop out or go elsewhere.
As for the complaining higher quality players, go to a league that has better players. You're doing "POOL" an injustice beating up on the beginners.
__________________
 
rocket23 said:
This may seem like sour grapes, But I digress, This is the 2nd time I lost 2 games to 1. I lost the 1st match, won the 2nd, lost the 3rd.....match over! In APA, the players are given a number, the higher the number the better you are percieved to be.....( I agree ).
However in the league I am in, the players are given a higher number (regarding how many balls one should make in a match), I played 2 35's which in reality , should be push overs. They were no where close, masse's, draw shots, frigging kick shots......... Their way of handicapping sucks, plain and simple..........It needs to be addressed.
That being said, ( I had to get it off my chest). I shot a good game tonight......I'll take it and pity the fool I see next week.
rant over.:sorry:
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Every sandbagging thread always starts out the same. Someone complains when a lower skilled player beats them. Maybe you just played at or below their skill level. did you ever consider that! Why doesn't anyone complain when they beat a lower skilled player about how they are laying down to stay at that lower skill level? That's the definition of sandbagging. If you think a player is sandbagging, then mark their misses as defensive (nonperformance) shots and they will then get moved up. The league operators can only do so much. The other players of the league have to do their part in policing the cheaters in their leagues. I smile inside every time I sign the scoresheet that has no defensive shots marked down when my scoresheet has 3 or 4 or more and have listened to the opposing captain complain all night about so and so sandbagging. Quit complaining and do your part to fix the problem. Oh, and start shooting like the 6 or 7 you claim to be. Also realize that a 3 can occasionally shot like a 5 or a 6; its lack of consistency that keeps them a 3.
 
Gambling has there number runners...
pool sandbaggers hustle the numbers.
A loosing sandbagger has many issues,
best to pass that poor boy a box of tissues. :sad:

__________________ ;)
 
Duane Hinton said:
Every sandbagging thread always starts out the same. Someone complains when a lower skilled player beats them. Maybe you just played at or below their skill level. did you ever consider that! Why doesn't anyone complain when they beat a lower skilled player about how they are laying down to stay at that lower skill level? That's the definition of sandbagging. If you think a player is sandbagging, then mark their misses as defensive (nonperformance) shots and they will then get moved up. The league operators can only do so much. The other players of the league have to do their part in policing the cheaters in their leagues. I smile inside every time I sign the scoresheet that has no defensive shots marked down when my scoresheet has 3 or 4 or more and have listened to the opposing captain complain all night about so and so sandbagging. Quit complaining and do your part to fix the problem. Oh, and start shooting like the 6 or 7 you claim to be. Also realize that a 3 can occasionally shot like a 5 or a 6; its lack of consistency that keeps them a 3.
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Although there is not much info, a 35 in the USAPL league is a beginner. They should not even know what a masse is much less execute one. If a supposed D players runs 3-4 balls on me with what looks like deliberate position, or "misses" when I end up with no shots every time, that's when there are issues.
 
Sandbagging.

jojopiff said:
Complaining about skill levels whilst playing in a handicapped league is right near the top of things I'll never understand.

I hope you're just venting and will move on. I think sandbagging is an overused term that happens waaaaaay less than people would like to think. It's convenient to use for a loss and never applies when you (you figuratively, not literally you) win. People aren't as good as their best nor as bad as their worst. I think we could safely assume that 1 letter grade is the variation from ones' best - worst. So if a middle C players best is as good as a middle B and someone loses to them when playing like that, then middle C is a sandbagger! Vice versa, when middle C is playing like a middle D and loses to that same person, then it's all because I played great.

I know sandbagging happens but IMO it's much less than people would like to think. If you play a person twice, do you think you have a gauge on their true skill level? How about 5 times?

My best friend just started playing and moved up to a 5 by the end of his first session. His last match he could barely make a ball and got smoked by a 4. I wish the people who pissed and moaned during the season when he was a 3, then a 4, could have saw this when they thought he was sandbagging. When your on the lower end or middle skill levels your variation is much larger. He's honestly not the skill of a 5, but his best was good enough to move him there,
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I've played many thousands of games in eight different league systems since 1965.

Sandbagging was rare or non-existent in all except for APA. In my opinion, after a dozen seasons in APA, most of the successful teams sandbagged quite a lot.

Another problem is that one's APA average, though based on a system, is still arbitrary. The league director always has the option to "adjust" a ranking despite one's record.

I watched a "5" in 9-ball run three tough racks against my team once in the play-offs. At least four captains complained about this guy's rating. The league director simply said, "He's a 5."

On the other hand, again in play-offs, I had a 3 (8-ball) lose two matches in a row and be raised to a 5. It was critical because our next match was for the trip to the Nationals. When my guy became a 5, I was forced to sit out the final match (I was at least one of the best players among the 32 teams). Our "5" lost again in the final match and we missed going to the Nationals.
 
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hang-the-9 said:
What is "their way" exactly? 35 sounds like a USAPL league which goes from 35-125 . If you and others knew how those players played they should have been manually adjusted and if new players they should be at 50. Assuming you are talking about USAPL handicapps.

I started to play in a league, soon as I see people faking their skill, I put my sticks away and walk out, no more playing in that league. The USAPL I played in my area is really good for not having sandbaggers, the LO and the players don't put up with that, if we see someone playing better than their ranking shows, we just say something and they get an instant bump. Tried TAP league, did not like the handicaps or the locations or player ratings much, after one season i was out.
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As the op I took an indirect approach, trying not to offend anyone, you are spot on with the league you mentioned. However i talked to the captain, who said he made several complaints and got no wjere.....seeing as this is the first few weeks into the spring session . Maybe a little patience is warranted.......

...after a good nights sleep I realized had I sunk all the balls in my match maybe my opponent would be the author instead of me?
 
trob said:
It's more of a failure by the league operator then the league. But yes I've been told by many people who love Apa that if your not sand bagging your gonna get smoked in Vegas. Every area is going to have different level of play. Your handy cap is based on your local play not national but you shouldn't goto a national tournament and have mid level players stringing racks against you... But you will
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I see your point but I think equipment is a factor as well...If you're in an area that has only valley tables with large pockets you will see handicaps higher than they should be anyway. I've seen this in my area...all the big talkers from the valley bar boxes come over and play on tight diamonds and all of sudden they're talking a little lower than before ;) What? I have to aim and actually shoot straight? ha!
Also, I don't see the point in sandbagging just to get to Vegas in APA..the odds are so low of making it to Vegas to begin with and if you do, even lower that you will win the tournament so it makes zero sense to waste your time not playing your best pool...
Also, your team will get DQ'd if you have a player move up 2 skill levels in LTC or Nationals so it's too risky in my opinion. I wouldn't want to be that guy but I can't be because I can't move up anymore ;)
There's mostly expense in APA with very little or no chance of any pay back at any time....so play, enjoy it, compete...if you get to Vegas great...good luck..
 
rocket23 said:
This may seem like sour grapes, But I digress, This is the 2nd time I lost 2 games to 1. I lost the 1st match, won the 2nd, lost the 3rd.....match over! In APA, the players are given a number, the higher the number the better you are percieved to be.....( I agree ).
However in the league I am in, the players are given a higher number (regarding how many balls one should make in a match), I played 2 35's which in reality , should be push overs. They were no where close, masse's, draw shots, frigging kick shots......... Their way of handicapping sucks, plain and simple..........It needs to be addressed.
That being said, ( I had to get it off my chest). I shot a good game tonight......I'll take it and pity the fool I see next week.
rant over.:sorry:
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So this match you're talking about, it isn't an APA match, is that right?
 
Inaction said:
I believe that will change. GS announced that the tournaments will be handicapped and I thought MS did so too.

From the GS league standings on 10/27/14:
I have Counted all of the players votes and starting next year
the team tournament will be Handicapped!
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I don't think MS has. I play in both and you are correct on the GS one but I'm pretty sure that's only for their tournament here in town. Numbers have been down in that tournament so it will be interesting. I'm looking forward to shooting some of the better players as I've always felt like you don't get better without playing tougher players. That being said I have 3-4 very inconsistant players on my team and although we will probably get a fair amount of balls we will probably get run over and if that's the case I can see the tournament dropping even more. Seems C division is always the one with the most teams as teams insist on dropping down and if true C teams don't feel like they have a chance any more there is no reason to play it imo. It sucks that they take the entry fee per divison and all it all goes to that division. I wish they would add more to A and B to try to tempt teams to move up rather than down. Just my .02, sorry for the derail.
 
It does come down to a simple state of fair play. Sucks that I was put in a low win percentage position. I'm a firm believer in Karma........just a matter of time.:cool:
 
rocket23 said:
As the op I took an indirect approach, trying not to offend anyone, you are spot on with the league you mentioned. However i talked to the captain, who said he made several complaints and got no wjere.....seeing as this is the first few weeks into the spring session . Maybe a little patience is warranted.......

...after a good nights sleep I realized had I sunk all the balls in my match maybe my opponent would be the author instead of me?
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Don't see who you can offend, the issue is not the league its the players and the people responsible for maintaining your area. I know that in my local USAPL league the players running and several of the better players can judge how good a person plays and will easily modify a player rating even mid match. I personally have told the LO that a new player is well over the rating someone was playing at a few times and each time it was changed no arguements from the player or the LO.

If you have 35 ranked players making advanced shots and running 3-4 balls at a time more than once a night, that is an issue for the LO to fix.
 
Hajidub said:
From my experiences it seems sandbagging (as many call it) tends to be more of an issue in APA (non-master division) leagues. Their system is flawed. I haven't experienced bagging issues in BCA or NAPA yet.
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stop ........... if there is a handicap......... there are sand baggers...... in every league.... bowling, golf, pool............ always will be

You just need the skill to play in a handicapped league and stop whining because you lose........ somebody loses every game........ get over it ........... practice and get better or quit because you can't handle it............

Kim
 
whammo57 said:
stop ........... if there is a handicap......... there are sand baggers...... in every league.... bowling, golf, pool............ always will be

You just need the skill to play in a handicapped league and stop whining because you lose........ somebody loses every game........ get over it ........... practice and get better or quit because you can't handle it............

Kim
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Pool to me isn't nearly as bad as bowling lol. I will never forget the first time I shot a 280 scratch in a tournament to lose to a guy that shot 302 with his cap. I can't remember his average but he shot 268 scratch.
 
Rocket, I have seen a number of strange things happen in the USAPL scoring system in the short run but after getting 5-6 matches under your belt the scoring certainly has seemed fair to me. There are other factors that affect your average; misses in a match, Break and runs, skunking your opponent (WinZip) in a game, opponent runs out after your break, etc. All aimed at a more equitable way of assessing skill. BTW - a win is 14 points not 7. Just for curiosity sake, what is your level? Where do you play? Ayer?? Which night?

Oh, is the system perfect? No, but it is an attempt to make it fairer.

Al
 
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whammo57 said:
stop ........... if there is a handicap......... there are sand baggers...... in every league.... bowling, golf, pool............ always will be

You just need the skill to play in a handicapped league and stop whining because you lose........ somebody loses every game........ get over it ........... practice and get better or quit because you can't handle it............

Kim
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Slowdown sparky, no whining here. I'm happy with my game progress, as it stands, in fact after playing BCA/NAPA I'm almost positive APA will be easier if I ever go back. Win, lose, or money I look as league as a reason to get out of the house and practice.
 
i have been playing apa for 3 1/2 years now and have only encountered 1 player who i know is a sand bagger. i have heard people complain about a couple more players but when i played them i did not think they were under handicapped.

its funny how in every league...when you beat the shit out of a certain player , you played great. next time you face him...he beats the shit out of you and he's called a sand bagger.

i am inconsistent as hell and have been called a sand bagger a couple of times. wanna know how inconsistent i am ?

in 4 9 ball matches so far this session. ...i am a 5

vs 4 ...won 17-3
vs 4...won 14-6
vs 5 ...won 15-5
vs 4 ...won 12-8.

this past weekend in tri cups. lost to a 3 ...12- 8 and lost to a 2.. 18-2 they played great...i played decent...or at least i did when they left me a shot.:grin: shit happens...i never once thought either player was a sand bagger.

my best game is winning 20-0 vs another 5 at vegas. nationals.

my worst game is losing to a 1 ...with me being a 5..in a regional qualifier.

SHIT HAPPENS. :grin-square:
 
Donny Lutz said:
I've played many thousands of games in eight different league systems since 1965.

Sandbagging was rare or non-existent in all except for APA. In my opinion, after a dozen seasons in APA, most of the successful teams sandbagged quite a lot.

Another problem is that one's APA average, though based on a system, is still arbitrary. The league director always has the option to "adjust" a ranking despite one's record.

I watched a "5" in 9-ball run three tough racks against my team once in the play-offs. At least four captains complained about this guy's rating. The league director simply said, "He's a 5."

On the other hand, again in play-offs, I had a 3 (8-ball) lose two matches in a row and be raised to a 5. It was critical because our next match was for the trip to the Nationals. When my guy became a 5, I was forced to sit out the final match (I was at least one of the best players among the 32 teams). Our "5" lost again in the final match and we missed going to the Nationals.
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Quite honestly, it sounds as if you have more of a crooked LO problem than a sandbagging problem. Again, I will never argue there aren't sandbaggers but what you've laid out above is an LO refusing to move a player up when clearly (clearly to you all anyway) he/she was better than a 5 and the LO has the ability to adjust his handicap. Then, in your teams case, the LO used his ability to move your 3 to a 5 after two losses. So, he either perceived your 3 as sandbagging or has a problem you/your team.

I believe the APA can work assuming:
1. An LO on the up and up. If they play favorites or punish people they don't like it can never work.
2. People keeping accurate score. Unless the LO is given all the information possible to "see" what you're actually seeing they can't be expected to make informed decisions about people who are sandbagging.

PS. This isn't directed at you as you're clearly a seasoned player, but more of a generality.
 
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