Sandbaggers on APA Regionals

We were in 10th place, but had a player kicked out for sandbagging:mad:
His win was reversed which cost us the match. He was just having the best day of his life!!! But I have to admit they have a nice system, no more for me though. I only play "real pool" now. LOL!
 
softshot said:
I don't know if it happens or not...I've never seen it... "sandbagging" is usually what the loser says the winner did.

you got beat

get over it

practice more and maybe he won't beat you again.

VNEA has a much better (though not perfect) way to do things it isn't a cryptic secret algorithm... its simple division # of points divided by number of games.. losing on purpose doesn't do you any good.. add in getting paid per point... most people want to get their money back.

I've never played APA but all I read from APA members is bad press.. they need to fix something.
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Your not looking hard enough if you haven't seen sandbagging in the APA it's everywhere I'm not a great player I'm a good 6 closer to a 7 and when I play someone that is a 4 and they play flawless position and run racks and they never did this all session thats sandbagging and the APA does nothing. When I play I play to win I don't sandbag for any reason I want to be the best I can at the game thats why I play I want to play better players in the league, so I think you need to open your eyes to the reality of the APA my friend.
 
As an instructor, NONE of my players could fool me...and none did, over the 4 yr period I was a league operator.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

hang-the-9 said:
None that you know of at least.

Half the APA members I know talk about how they lost to keep their skill down, or have told new players to the league to "not play your speed". On the other hand, my brother-in law and his team went to Vegas 2 years in a row, and he's a 9, plus a few other high players, so sandbagging is not the only way to Vegas, sometimes just having a good team is enough.
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My first year playing APA and it will be my last,its the worst league I have ever seen.They do nothing about sandbaggers. A guy on the next table who was a solid 6(closer to a 7) played a 2 and the 2 won the lag and ran 13 balls to start the match then preceeded to purposely miss for 10 minutes but still leave no shot and finally put the last few balls in. Nothings perfect,but if they dont change things apa will fail,seems like the local operators dont want to rock the boat and are only interested in building up the area they own and then selling it.
 
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I know it goes on; hell I did a ton of it. But there is a very large discrepancy in the higher skill levels. One you become a 7, there is no telling what the hell type of 7 you might get a hold of. That?s it, you are a decent player and now you have to go up against Joe super shortstop and he kicks your butt so bad you feel like a 3. Which would probably been a better handicap against him.
 
Sandbagging is *not* everywhere in the APA. But, I imagine, whereever sandbagging gets going, it begins to snowball as other folks get frustrated and say "screw it, if they're gonna do it, so am I". It just feeds on itself.

I played APA for four years in the Boulder, CO area. I knew everyone in our division, which would get upwards of fourteen teams at times. And I can't recall one occurance where I (or anyone else on my team, or folks on other teams whose judgment I trusted) considered anyone to be sandbagging.

As far as the LOs ignoring it - well, those leagues are their livelihood. I imagine they're hesitant to go overtly pissing people off by raising handicaps or giving them (and their weekly dues) the boot.

Look at it this way - there's two folks, the sandbagger and the other player complaining about the sandbagger. The LO can:
* Boot the sandbagger, and lose half of the income off those two players (and maybe more, if the sandbagger's team ditches as well), or
* Ignore the problem, keep the income from the sandbagger coming in, and hope the complaining player doesn't leave of his own accord.

It's in their interest to play passive. One way they're guaranteed to lose a customer/money, the other way, it's not guaranteed. Do the math. :/
 
Ken_4fun said:
Robbie if you are asking if I have purposely lost,,,,,:rolleyes: yes.
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Then I have to say, I think you are wasting your time in the league. And everyone elses. Unless someone is paying your fees, you arent exactly getting a free trip to vegas. And I find it hard to believe that dumping like that doesnt bring your overall game down a little bit.
 
I've played APA since I moved to America in 2002, and loved every minute of it. I formed a new team last year, and we've all become close friends and APA night is something I always look forward to. APA is not about serious amateur pool. It is about friends, having fun, having drinks and enjoying yourself.

As for sandbagging, I give no credence whatsoever to someone who accuses a player of sandbagging after losing to them. Zero. You've seen your opponent shoot one match. Everyone has good days, and bad days. Just accept you've been beaten and move on.

The problem is the 23 rule. This could be improved so much, and I've written to the APA a few times with suggestions. Until this is changed, sandbagging will be a problem because we are always looking for the gold dust player that is an SL3 that won't go up (and if they are hot even better!)
 
APA is not about serious amateur pool. It is about friends, having fun, having drinks and enjoying yourself.
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I fully agree with this. Ken is saying to not take is so seriously. I dont, I like to have fun in league. I love it when I see the 2s and 3s on my team get a big smile on their face after they have played a great match. Or just sitting around talking with my friends. Cheating/sandbagging takes away from this.
 
ScottW said:
I played APA for four years in the Boulder, CO area. I knew everyone in our division, which would get upwards of fourteen teams at times. And I can't recall one occurance where I (or anyone else on my team, or folks on other teams whose judgment I trusted) considered anyone to be sandbagging.
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Except yourself, Scott! :p

As for Boulder teams, they wouldn't know how to sandbag if you stuck them in a sandbox with a bunch of paper bags. Everyone is too busy playing defense and being sticklers about minor rules.

Hey! What are you doing out in Atlanta? Trent and Clinton say "hi".
 
they wouldn't know how to sandbag if you stuck them in a sandbox with a bunch of paper bags.
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LOL! ( i never write lol, but i really did laugh out loud! awesome)
 
Amateur Pool

If the APA wasn't a serious amateur Pool league, they wouldn't bother with regionals and a national tournament. Competition (and winning) is the very inherited goal of Pool, or any sport for that matter. Only the losers say, 'It's just a game', so their self-esteem and ego can be maintained.

Their should not be a 'governer' on handicaps (23 rule), the players are adults, not 3rd graders. The APA uses less handicap levels than any other league I know of, and that is one of the main biggest problems with their system. And the BCA system, ratings from 1 to 75 for 5 man 8 ball team (15points per game x 5 games = 75 total), is exactly what makes the BCA league the best. For every level of the APA, it is equivalent to almost 11 levels of the BCA. (APA5 is equivalent BCA43 to BCA53). In BCA, each would be defined with a separate handicap level, in the APA, each would be a APA5. Therefore, sandbagging will automatically happen in the APA.
Basically, you could say the APA is a bad business model for handicaps, and then did add on rules to try to make it workable.

The VNEA was smart enough to recognize the problems with a 10 handicap level system, went to 11, and then went to 13 to alleviate some of the problems.

The BCA recognized the potential problems to begin with, and therefore built their handicap system to be truer to a person's skill level.
 
The flipside of changing the 23 rule though, is this:

If it's increased, then you're going to have more teams that are stacked heavier. This means there will be fewer spots available for the lower-handicapped players. Essentially, I figure, SL2s will completely vanish.

The 23 rule is there to make teams have a good balance of skills as far as their players go. Increasing that limit will have a negative effect on the lower-skilled players.

And that's one of the nice things about APA - it's *not* all about the best players. It's for everyone, good and not-as-good.
 
I'm a 7 in three different league organizations, including APA. Due to personal issues over the past year or so, I haven't been playing as much, or practicing as much, and as a result, my consistency isn't at the level it should be. My confidence is down and so is my win percentage, and motivation to compete has virtually disappeared. I've also noticed that my perception of OTHER player's as "sandbaggers" has also increased proportionally because I'm having more difficulty with some of the "lower" skill levels than I normally would. I know that my poor performance is not because of sandbagging. My point is, that my perception of the skill levels of others has more to due with my own diminished performance than it does with the other players themselves. We have a natural tendency to blame outside forces for our failings rather than objectively looking at ourselves for the underlying causes of our problems and frustrations. When you are putting the time into practicing, and competing, and working consistently on your mechanics; your performance will improve and that will directly effect your confidence and attitude. Positive results come from doing the work.Then the other guy's handicap won't matter at all. (Please. No advice. I know what needs to be done. Thanks.)
 
Derek said:
Except yourself, Scott! :p

As for Boulder teams, they wouldn't know how to sandbag if you stuck them in a sandbox with a bunch of paper bags. Everyone is too busy playing defense and being sticklers about minor rules.

Hey! What are you doing out in Atlanta? Trent and Clinton say "hi".
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Oh meh. I'm a good six, not a seven yet. YET! Of course, I'm not even playing APA out here so guess I'm going to be the eternal six. :P

Is that you Mr. Ott? Say hi to the gang for me :)
 
Snapshot9 said:
If the APA wasn't a serious amateur Pool league, they wouldn't bother with regionals and a national tournament. Competition (and winning) is the very inherited goal of Pool, or any sport for that matter. Only the losers say, 'It's just a game', so their self-esteem and ego can be maintained.

Their should not be a 'governer' on handicaps (23 rule), the players are adults, not 3rd graders. The APA uses less handicap levels than any other league I know of, and that is one of the main biggest problems with their system. And the BCA system, ratings from 1 to 75 for 5 man 8 ball team (15points per game x 5 games = 75 total), is exactly what makes the BCA league the best. For every level of the APA, it is equivalent to almost 11 levels of the BCA. (APA5 is equivalent BCA43 to BCA53). In BCA, each would be defined with a separate handicap level, in the APA, each would be a APA5. Therefore, sandbagging will automatically happen in the APA.
Basically, you could say the APA is a bad business model for handicaps, and then did add on rules to try to make it workable.

The VNEA was smart enough to recognize the problems with a 10 handicap level system, went to 11, and then went to 13 to alleviate some of the problems.

The BCA recognized the potential problems to begin with, and therefore built their handicap system to be truer to a person's skill level.
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You are right on target.
What amazes me is APA LO's when going to Southwest Challenge in Vegas or these Shootouts, they do not do anything about it. Sometimes they only do it after the sand bagger damaged the moral and even self estime of 3 or 4 players and sometimes teams.
We had an issue last year in September with a SL3 doing a break and run and killed a SL6 on our team. Our SL6 only did like 5 o5 6 points, can't remember.
I left a message to APA and I am waiting for their callback.
See... When you call BCA you do not get an extension or leave a message... You get somebody on the phone, you explain your concern with the issue and tries to address it appropriatelly.
 
Scott Lee said:
As an instructor, NONE of my players could fool me...and none did, over the 4 yr period I was a league operator.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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See I like that attitude, this is my big problem with handicapping. If you just look at stats - it's easy to sandbag. But if you watch a player play and you are familiar with what it really takes to make certain shots or play certain position - it is immediately obvious when someone is misrepresenting their skill level. And it's not just the APA I barely play in the tri-state tour anymore for the same reason - underhandicapped players are not a rare thing. And no amount of complaining will do it, even if you point out they make runouts that better players would have trouble with. By and large unless someone dominates in their handicap level or is seen to make an absolutely incredible out they wont get raised.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
It's ironic such a thread would begin today. Last night, I found out two members of my team had their handicaps go up. As a result, we're barely able to field a team which means this will be our last season together. As a result, we're looking into moving the team to another league.

All of this is merely a never-ending problem with the APA. I mean, we can sit down and LIST the problems with the APA. The fact is, most of us play in it either because there are no alternatives or because we enjoy the company but it's not because we think it's the ultimate amateur competition out there. Amateur pool is FAR more intense than what the APA offers and I honestly believe if you keep APA competition as one fun night out of your week and try not to take the results seriously, you'll be a happier person.
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Yep - you really need to view the APA as competition...and hanging out. It's not anywhere near as intense as most of the other leagues. I continue to play in it because I like being involved in all parts of the local pool scene here.

I won my bracket as a 7 this past weekend and am going to vegas. I am one of those nuts that has always wanted to be a 7 and was happy to win my bracket (luckily I was in a mixed bracket with 6's and 7's so I didn't have the killer 7's to deal with). Also I don't have to worry about anything anymore, I'm a 7 and I had damn well better play like one or I'm going to lose a lot of matches. I played 2 6's and neither seemed like an out and out 7, although the guy I played in the final match was pretty strong...

I find that sandbagging is mostly the domain of 4's and 5's - 2's and 3's usually want to get better, then 5's try and avoid going up. The 6/7 bracket seems to be mostly interested in actually *playing* some pool.

I also agree with the whole ridiculously wide range of 7's - just having gone up I'm on the low end. I know plenty of 7's I'd be lucky to win 1 in 5 matches against, and some even less. It's not very fair in that respect - but for me it just makes me want to get even better so I can be one of those "unfair to play against" 7's!:)

As has been pointed out it's the LO's show until you get to vegas and there are many LO's that just don't care (mine included) aside from a rampant problem my LO takes only the most cursory role in running the league.

This is why I only play 1 APA night, and I also play in a "real" 9-ball and 14.1 local league. This is also why I know exactly when I'm being taken - in team vegas last year a 4 out-safetied me. It's hard to believe a 4 could outsafety someone about to be raised to a 7 with 5 years of 14.1 league experience (in NYC where 14.1 is pretty competative) to engineer several ball in hand opportunities.

I can't wait to go to vegas for singles, but I know at the very least 1/2 the field will roll over me like a dump truck over daisies:)
 
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