Sanding problem

[Stoney]

I have a plain maple forearm with veneered points a black joint collar. In prepping it prior to staining with a medium mahogany stain I sanded down to 600 grit radially and finished sanding axially. After applying the stain and balancing out the coverage I set the cue aside to dry before applying a final stain coat. Two weeks later, more or less, I go back to finish the job and find that the stain has dried really splotchy with some areas looking the way I would expect and others quite dark. This was not apparent when I first applied the stain. In trying to even out the stain I began sanding with the grain and noticed the paper was clogging very fast - almost as if the stain were not yet dry. Now, where there were darker spots were I have marks which look like phenolic dust pulled back into the wood (which it is not). I am afraid to apply new stain before figuring out a way to minimize (or hide) this streaking.

Any suggestions as to what to do or what to try? I can't experiment too much because the worst of this is between the tops of the points and the joint collar and can be seen from the moon on a cloudy night. One other thing - I can't go darker on the stain as the outer veneer on the points is ebony (black) and the transition line between the veneer and the maple would 'muddy' up which is the way it was originally and it didn't look all that good.

I have pulled phenolic dust back into maple when making a shaft and luckily was able to sand it out without ruining the taper of the shaft. That much sanding is not an option here due to the beauty ring at the joint and the veneers in the points.

Any help, including telling me I'm screwed, would be appreciated.

Regards,
Stoney

 

[CamposCues]

Did you wipe off the excess stain before you let it sit? I've had stain pool and get nasty if I didn't wipe the excess off.

 

[Paul Dayton]

If You can't go darker, you're probably screwed. Since the stain has dried, it has also penetrated and only sanding will remove it. Going darker won't be easy but it wouldn't be the end of the world either, it's just that the outer veneer would effectively disappear and the points would look shorter.

There are a number of things to do when staining a cue, especially making sure that you use a dye stain, not the common translucent pigmented stains in the paint store. Then apply the dye in thinned out coats until you're sure it is right. Wet the dyed wood before finishing to check the color. You can always go darker.

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

What type of stain did you use?...JER

 

[QMAKER]

Stain

Other than sanding it down and starting over I do not know what to tell you.
My best advice is not to use STAIN, use DYE as it sinks into the wood and
does not leave a film/residue. I make mine from tea leaves.

I have a plain maple forearm with veneered points a black joint collar. In prepping it prior to staining with a medium mahogany stain I sanded down to 600 grit radially and finished sanding axially. After applying the stain and balancing out the coverage I set the cue aside to dry before applying a final stain coat. Two weeks later, more or less, I go back to finish the job and find that the stain has dried really splotchy with some areas looking the way I would expect and others quite dark. This was not apparent when I first applied the stain. In trying to even out the stain I began sanding with the grain and noticed the paper was clogging very fast - almost as if the stain were not yet dry. Now, where there were darker spots were I have marks which look like phenolic dust pulled back into the wood (which it is not). I am afraid to apply new stain before figuring out a way to minimize (or hide) this streaking.

Any suggestions as to what to do or what to try? I can't experiment too much because the worst of this is between the tops of the points and the joint collar and can be seen from the moon on a cloudy night. One other thing - I can't go darker on the stain as the outer veneer on the points is ebony (black) and the transition line between the veneer and the maple would 'muddy' up which is the way it was originally and it didn't look all that good.

I have pulled phenolic dust back into maple when making a shaft and luckily was able to sand it out without ruining the taper of the shaft. That much sanding is not an option here due to the beauty ring at the joint and the veneers in the points.

Any help, including telling me I'm screwed, would be appreciated.

Regards,
Stoney

 

[Quesports]

stain

While I prefer no stain on any woods, wouldn't an NGR furniture stain be the first choice?? Just curious not trying to stir up the pot....
Dan

 

[Stoney]

Did you wipe off the excess stain before you let it sit? I've had stain pool and get nasty if I didn't wipe the excess off.

Yes, I did wipe off the excess stain - but initially the wood was sucking up the stain faster than a dehydrated camel sucks up water. In those areas I went a little 'fuller' on the application and a little 'lighter' on wiping it off.

 

[Stoney]

If You can't go darker, you're probably screwed. Since the stain has dried, it has also penetrated and only sanding will remove it. Going darker won't be easy but it wouldn't be the end of the world either, it's just that the outer veneer would effectively disappear and the points would look shorter.

There are a number of things to do when staining a cue, especially making sure that you use a dye stain, not the common translucent pigmented stains in the paint store. Then apply the dye in thinned out coats until you're sure it is right. Wet the dyed wood before finishing to check the color. You can always go darker.

Thanks, Paul. I think I am going back to the original dark mahogany stain - correction, dye stain - with the original dark stain you could still see the outer veneer, it just didn't 'pop' like I thought it should.

 

[Stoney]

What type of stain did you use?...JER

I used Minwax Oil Base. No particular reason on the brand other than I have used it for several years on woodwork and furniture projects with good results, also it is readily available locally.

 

[Stoney]

Other than sanding it down and starting over I do not know what to tell you.
My best advice is not to use STAIN, use DYE as it sinks into the wood and
does not leave a film/residue. I make mine from tea leaves.

Others have given the same advice regarding stain. Did I listen? For the most part yes. Did I listen this time? No. Will I listen from here on out? You betcha'. This has been a serious pothole in the road to doing quality work.

 

[Stoney]

While I prefer no stain on any woods, wouldn't an NGR furniture stain be the first choice?? Just curious not trying to stir up the pot....
Dan

I don't care to stain cue woods either, however this was a refinish job and the customer wanted to keep as close to the original color as possible. I got the original color pretty much dead on - just that everything else pretty much went south from there. The stain I used is sold as a NGR stain and if raising the grain were the issue I could have dealt with that. This is more an issue of uneven penetration (and probably application) which has left stain solids in the grain that probably will never sand out. As others have said a dye stain would have been the best choice and should have been my only choice

 

[rhncue]

I don't care to stain cue woods either, however this was a refinish job and the customer wanted to keep as close to the original color as possible. I got the original color pretty much dead on - just that everything else pretty much went south from there. The stain I used is sold as a NGR stain and if raising the grain were the issue I could have dealt with that. This is more an issue of uneven penetration (and probably application) which has left stain solids in the grain that probably will never sand out. As others have said a dye stain would have been the best choice and should have been my only choice

It's very hard to stain a cue once a finish has been put on as the sealer and finish can soak in to different depths. I also never use an oil stain. I usually use an alcohol based stain or if needed sometimes a water stain. As has been said, I seldom use any stain.

Dick

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

The secret word here is "REFINISH". Dick is dead on, with his assesment. Once a finish is applied, it is near impossible to restain the wood evenly. I don't do these for that reason. Also you have no idea what finish the cuemaker used or how deeply it was absorbed...JER

 

[Quesports]

Right!

The secret word here is "REFINISH". Dick is dead on, with his assesment. Once a finish is applied, it is near impossible to restain the wood evenly. I don't do these for that reason. Also you have no idea what finish the cuemaker used or how deeply it was absorbed...JER

YES YES & YES!! Refinish is the word here.. The only other option is to do something like an overstain and blend it in as well as possible. Then there is spraying an overstain to blend the most offensive areas. Either way I wholeheartedly agree with the advice and comments quoted above... Good Luck to the OP!!

 

[Stoney]

Dick and JER - I knew I should have asked first! But no, I've refinished other cues, some of them stained, and gotten away with it so off I go. As my Momma used to say "You don't know what you don't know 'til you don't know it". Now I know.

Thanks to all replied. I learned something today, in fact, several somethings.

Regards,
Stoney

 

[Cue Crazy]

I used Minwax Oil Base. No particular reason on the brand other than I have used it for several years on woodwork and furniture projects with good results, also it is readily available locally.

I still have many shades of Minwax products that I don't use, and never had much luck with It, especially where cues are concerned. You can prep the wood with their stain conditioner, and It helps with the even looking coverage, but even so, If finishing over It with clear, Then the finish will probably start lifting before too long. The oil base is just totally wrong for our purposes.

I know I've asked before, and I'm almost sure I've seen where others asked on here too, so may be worth while to search the archives on this one. If I remember correctly there were some great products mentioned for staining cues, along with the give and take as they related to each base type.

 

[ELBeau]

Prior thread on stain and dye

I know I've asked before, and I'm almost sure I've seen where others asked on here too, so may be worth while to search the archives on this one. If I remember correctly there were some great products mentioned for staining cues, along with the give and take as they related to each base type.

Thanks for the heads up- I found it to be a good read:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=45592&highlight=stain

Here's Dick's (RHNCUE) response- which I think you were specifically referencing:

11-09-2006, 03:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSB-Refugee
That is interesting. Is the solution dangerous? I heard of darkening wood with amonia fumes. Does anyone know if amonia fumes work on maple?

Tracy
I think that is for ebonizing Oak as Oak has a lot of tanic acid that reacts with the ammonia. In years past there were many different home-brews for changing the colors and looks of wood. As cheap as stains and dyes are now why would anyone bother though.

There are three basic carriers or solvents for dyes and stains. Water based is probably the most common. it penetrates the wood the deepest and usually is vibrant. Drawbacks are that it takes a day or two to dry before the finish can be applied and raises the grain. Alcohol based doesn't soak in as deep as water based but dries quickly ( about 15 min. or so ) and doesn't raise the grain. Oil base penetrates the least amount and takes the longest to dry. It doesn't raise the grain but often is difficult to get a good finish over. Oil based are usually only used with hand rubbed oil finishes instead of film finishes that you see on most cues today.

I, myself, use Aniline dyes with an alcohol carrier. I've never had a problem with them. I seldom use stains except maybe a little fruitwood or golden oak that I sand right back off just to pop the eyes in Birdseye or Curly Maple. Once in awhile I may stain a Maple cue emerald green or bloodwood or such just to be different. Back when I was building cues just to sell I would make up a Emerald green Curly or Birdseye in the batch I was doing. Nine out of ten people would not like it but it would usually be one of the first cues I would sell as green really turns some people on.

Dick

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

Stoney when you have been in the business a little longer, you will discover that you have to say "NO" to jobs that are more problems, than they are worth. ONE SCREW UP & the word that you ruined someones cue, will spread like wildfire. It's sorry to say, but you have to protect your ass or it can ruin you. GOOD LUCK...JER

 

[Stoney]

Stoney when you have been in the business a little longer, you will discover that you have to say "NO" to jobs that are more problems, than they are worth. ONE SCREW UP & the word that you ruined someones cue, will spread like wildfire. It's sorry to say, but you have to protect your ass or it can ruin you. GOOD LUCK...JER

JER -

Good advise as always. While I have never been one to let my alligator mouth write a check my hummingbird ass couldn't cash it is clear to me I did not think this job through before I accepted it. Add to that the fact that knew there was no margin for error due to the personality of the customer and this 'simple' job became a recipe for disaster. I'm beginning to feel like the song of many years back which contained the line "I got a job playing in a dance band on the Titanic. What do you think of that?". In retrospect not much.

Again, thanks for the advise JER

Regards,
Stoney

 

[ratcues]

Do you have pics? You can always take a small brush or dobber and darken the lighter spots to match the darker spots. Only add the stain to the lighter areas.

If you are ready to throw in the towel, send the cue to me and I will see what I can do to save it.



<~~I never know when to call "time of death."