Save the Break Ball or Not?

[Dan White]

In this situation the 12 ball is a classic break ball for the next rack (I'm left handed). The question is whether you save the 12 as your break ball and try to get though the rack, or shoot the 1 and then use the 12 to break up the rest of the cluster right away?

The 13 is too straight, even with cheating, to open up the cluster. The 8 is almost a dead carom into the lower right pocket and can be made easily. The 11 doesn't go anywhere and there are no good combos.

I don't like breaking into clusters without a safety ball, but sometimes you have to do it. Is this one of those situations?

Here was my thinking: Shoot the 1 and follow to the rail for the 3. Follow down to the cube of chalk on the left rail for the 8 ball carom. Shoot the 8 carom medium soft with a little draw so that the 11 moves the 10 and 4 out, and you may get a little luck and get position on the 13 in the side or the corner (that's my safety ball). Worst case scenario I most likely have the 12 in the side or corner as a safety ball if I have to take it.

In reality the cue ball skipped/skidded when I hit the 3 and I didn't get any follow.

Larger picture question: How strongly do you want to keep that break ball in tact? I know there was one player (was it Mizerak?) who routinely shot in the break balls if it helped him get to the rest of the rack.

 

[acousticsguru]

Like most amateur players, I probably tend to try and preserve (or protect) a break ball too long (= until I can see an alternative), but in this particular scenario, you have too many things going for you not to go 12-3-8 (unless I misinterpret the angle, it doesn't look as you could get from the 12 to the 8 directly without slow-rolling it with inside English, plus there's really no need to leave the 3 there): provided the cue ball is low enough shooting the 8, it's going to glance off the 11 and go forward hitting the 4 and 13 almost simultaneously at a slot to medium speed (trying to hit the 13 first here, pushing the 4 into the 10 and 5, ideally leaving a straight-in shot on the 4), and you'll have the 1 as insurance if neither the 4 nor the 10 end up straight-in into the corner (trying to achieve that is the reason I'd use little or no follow shooting the 8, merely poke it with an above-center hit). That second line of balls that will keep most in vicinity except the 5 and 13 is the reason I'd shoot the 12 in this scenario: it's almost impossible you won't be left with a break shot shooting the 8 from a semi-flat angle. The problem is eliminating the surrounding balls if you shoot the 8 at the speed I tend to (medium-slow), especially if neither the 4 nor the 10 have a path into the corner (the 10 can easily get blocked by the 4 if the cue ball doesn't glance off the 8-11 but goes through the latter).

In short: this scenario looks so promising, I'd feel like I'd be taking a greater chance trying to play "around" the 12 (= trying to preserve it).

Another option would be to shoot the 1 first and use draw to get a better, off-straight angle on the 13, knowing that if one overhits it, there's still the 12. What I don't like about it is that following the 13 splitting the 4 and 5 with the cue ball, there's no insurance ball, so one needs to hit it hard enough to scatter the cluster in order to get a shot on one of those "moving targets" as I call this type of position play. I'm a sucker for insurance given the choice, though.

The last option (of the ones I'd consider at least) would be to shoot the 1 and 3 to get onto the 13 into the middle, not many people favorite choice, but when I do that I tend to leave more angle on the 3 to get off the cushion and under the 12 than most people, using inside English (I play more slow shots and use more spin than most Straight Pool players) - in other words I go where if I don't get perfect on the 13, I can see the 8. But this would be a picturesque and totally unnecessary choice here.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[Double-Dave]

Hi Dan,

What is your high run? If you play for 2-3 hours what would
you realistically expect your highest run of the night to be?

gr. Dave

 

[Dan White]

Like most amateur players, I probably tend to try and preserve (or protect) a break ball too long (= until I can see an alternative), but in this particular scenario, you have too many things going for you not to go 12-3-8 (unless I misinterpret the angle, it doesn't look as you could get from the 12 to the 8 directly without slow-rolling it with inside English, plus there's really no need to leave the 3 there): provided the cue ball is low enough shooting the 8, it's going to glance off the 11 and go forward hitting the 4 and 13 almost simultaneously at a slot to medium speed (trying to hit the 13 first here, pushing the 4 into the 10 and 5, ideally leaving a straight-in shot on the 4), and you'll have the 1 as insurance if neither the 4 nor the 10 end up straight-in into the corner (trying to achieve that is the reason I'd use little or no follow shooting the 8, merely poke it with an above-center hit). That second line of balls that will keep most in vicinity except the 5 and 13 is the reason I'd shoot the 12 in this scenario: it's almost impossible you won't be left with a break shot shooting the 8 from a semi-flat angle. The problem is eliminating the surrounding balls if you shoot the 8 at the speed I tend to (medium-slow), especially if neither the 4 nor the 10 have a path into the corner (the 10 can easily get blocked by the 4 if the cue ball doesn't glance off the 8-11 but goes through the latter).

Thanks for the reply, David. Regarding the bold part above, I think it is possible to glance off the 11 and go into the 13 rather full, but I'm not sure I see how it is possible to to from the 11 into the 13 and then the 4, especially without a lot of follow. Of course I defer to your expertise but I'm not sure how the cue ball could get to the 4 with any amount of power to make anything happen.

Regarding the blue part, I think this the main lesson I can take from your post. Take out the 12 because there are enough "insulating" balls in the neighborhood to give you a good shot at a new break ball. I see this as making the best of a somewhat dicey situation.

 

[Dan White]

Hi Dan,

What is your high run? If you play for 2-3 hours what would
you realistically expect your highest run of the night to be?

gr. Dave

Hi Dave 2. I've been working on my stroke for literally the last few years and only recently believe I have it really straightened out. So as of the last week or two I've gone back to running balls, which is why I'm posting more about situations like this. I got my new table last May. I ran 70 trying it out, and then 82 about two weeks later. So I guess 82 is my high run, but I think I'm a better player now than I was then.

I've been extra busy with work (excuses, excuses) so I don't often play 2 to 3 hours at a time. Yesterday I played 1/2 hour and ran 35. Actually the 35 is the diagram I posted above. You see the dime on the cloth at the right? That's 2 diamonds which is 28 balls. Then I ran 7 more when the cue ball skidded. This morning I ran 44. On occasions when I am running balls, I always get into the 30's minimum.

Bottom line if I play for an hour I'm a lock to run 28 to 50 at least once. 2 or 3 hours? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say 42 to 56. If I play a little more and am not too tired from work I think I can run 50 a day. At that rate I think 100 would be a mathematical eventuality.

What I've learned on my "stroke journey" is that until you are able to truly strike the cue ball straight, you won't have consistent, high runs. When you contact the cue ball where you "think" you contact it, everything goes better. If you can't do that, it's like your stroke is sabotaging you all while you are trying to run balls.

 

[acousticsguru]

Thanks for the reply, David. Regarding the bold part above, I think it is possible to glance off the 11 and go into the 13 rather full, but I'm not sure I see how it is possible to to from the 11 into the 13 and then the 4, especially without a lot of follow. Of course I defer to your expertise but I'm not sure how the cue ball could get to the 4 with any amount of power to make anything happen.

You're welcome! Needless to say you were there and have seen it in person, hard to tell from a camera perspective, but what I mean is best described physically: the cue ball, upon contact with the 8, hops or glances sideways (not as in a jump shot, much more slowly, as in a bad contact or skid) before it goes forward a rotation or two (not really a follow stroke either, easier shown than explained, but it's the kind of shot that one sees accidentally more often than on purpose, and that is probably of more use in Straight Pool than any other pool game) - all depends on whether the tangent line off the 8 (90 degrees off the "thick" contact point on the 8 - by "thick" I mean hitting the object ball as fully as possible, if necessary with a tip of outside English to account for the throw) does not cross the edge of the 11 (it doesn't appear to do so on the picture, but it's certainly close). In a worst case scenario, the cue ball can be made to hop over the edge of the 11 off the 8 with a tiny bit more force (and again, virtually no follow) to achieve the same result, in which case the balls would spread a bit more, although not much due to those "insulating" balls at any rate, when I say medium-slow, the shot needs to be hit hard enough for the 4 to clear the 10 into the corner pocket (maybe "medium-slow" is misleading, but when I explain this kind of stuff to students, they usually shoot much too hard and downwards, as if I'd asked them to jump the cue ball, when in reality, the cue ball will leave the playing surface on most shots anyway, with very little effort and without elevation, even when one tries to avoid it, climbing the object ball, so to speak, which isn't far from what one wants here).

(The Brits call what I'm describing a "stun-follow" or "stun-forward" shot in e.g. Snooker - it's really like a stop shot gone wrong, which is why I said one sees it done almost more often unintentionally.)

In all this, what I mean is not to hit the 13 full in the face, far from it, it's merely a matter of splitting the 13 and 5 in this order instead of vice versa (glancing off the bottom of the 13 into the 4), as this will change the leave regarding the 4 and 10, and also, because there is no use pushing the 10 into the 14 with the 11, recreating another cluster.

Regarding the blue part, I think this the main lesson I can take from your post. Take out the 12 because there are enough "insulating" balls in the neighborhood to give you a good shot at a new break ball. I see this as making the best of a somewhat dicey situation.

Without those insulating balls, there would be no need to fear congestion, and my lengthy explanation above regarding which ball to hit or in what order unnecessary, but then, all depends on your trust in your ability to achieve a perfectly semi-flat angle (under 15 degrees, barely a ball's width below where the 12 is, another good reason to eliminate it: it occupies the comfort zone, no way to get there otherwise) on e.g. the 8 each and every time or you'd have to either shoot the 8 too slowly for comfort (not recommended: never sacrifice the ball-making percentage) or those balls you're moving may all be leaving the neighborhood.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[michael4]

The 13 is too straight, even with cheating, to open up the cluster. The 8 is almost a dead carom into the lower right pocket and can be made easily.

can you hit the 13, and follow it 8 inches to next play the 8 and open the pack a little bit?

 

[Dan White]

can you hit the 13, and follow it 8 inches to next play the 8 and open the pack a little bit?

Theoretically, yes, but it is a touchy shot. I guess it isn't clear from the photo, but there is no angle with the 13. The cue ball would be very close to the 8. I guess if you wanted to play the 8 carom you might be able to follow the 13, but then again you'd be at a steep angle to the 8. You'd have to lose the cue ball up table and back down to hit the carom from there.

 

[acousticsguru]

Theoretically, yes, but it is a touchy shot. I guess it isn't clear from the photo, but there is no angle with the 13. The cue ball would be very close to the 8. I guess if you wanted to play the 8 carom you might be able to follow the 13, but then again you'd be at a steep angle to the 8. You'd have to lose the cue ball up table and back down to hit the carom from there.

Judging from the photo, you weren't only straight-in on the 13, but straight-in on the "wrong side" (i.e. rolling forward, the cue might have gotten too close to the 8 to comfortably stroke the next shot). Looks like a trap to me (= innocent-looking but potentially run-ending, also I teach students to recognize when they have the choice between something straightforward and something that requires feel). Also, as in rotational games, line position, where the cue ball goes towards the next ball, is always preferable to crossing the line at 90 degrees, but if one has to go across the line, try and find a way to do it farther away (such as in 9-Ball: shoot the 13 with inside English and follow to come two rails out of the corner - but here, it looks as if one might brush the 8 doing that, and/or misjudge English and speed in a number of ways).

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[rikdee]

Play the 12 to gain the proper angle to break the cluster by pocketing the 13 in the side.

 

[alstl]

If the 8 is 100% in the corner I'd shoot the 4/11/8 combo and draw back for the 1 in the side.

But on the topic of whether to "save" the break ball, my theory is I don't have a break ball until all the clusters are open. If I need to shoot the potential break ball in order to open the cluster then I shoot it.

I ran 3 balls last week with this theory.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Another possibility is to break the 4-10-11 cluster with the 3. If I were above the 1 ball, I'd park the cue ball on the rail below the side pocket and go straight into the 4-11. But it looks like you're straight on the 1, so stop and play the 1-cushion trying to hit the 4-11. Given that any other path is also tricky (even the 1-stop, 12-break could turn out badly) you might take the chance.

 

[acousticsguru]

Another possibility is to break the 4-10-11 cluster with the 3. If I were above the 1 ball, I'd park the cue ball on the rail below the side pocket and go straight into the 4-11. But it looks like you're straight on the 1, so stop and play the 1-cushion trying to hit the 4-11. Given that any other path is also tricky (even the 1-stop, 12-break could turn out badly) you might take the chance.

Although that will work, and getting a shot on one of those "moving targets" as I call this kind of position play is likely (a very close and off-angle 13 uptable in a worst case scenario), the old-timers (= Accu-Stats video tapes, no one here played Straight Pool when I was a teenager) I learnt from would always try and find a pattern offering insurance given the choice: e.g. 12-3-8, 12-3-13, even the slow-roll, inside English 12-13 (not my favorite choice for precisely that reason) all leave the 1 for insurance, as would 12-13 shooting the 13 into the same corner as the 12 (eliminating the need for slow-rolling a ball with side spin, but unnecessarily tough to avoid the 3 with outside follow and get above the 13 high enough, even if that is a shot I like and probably choose more often than I should).

(It does look as if one could cheat the middle pocket following the 1, and get to and do what you're proposing, by the way.)

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[3andstop]

I saw rolling the 1 in and getting inside the 3 to open the balls, or roll the 1 in, get straight on the 3, shoot the 3, roll under the 12, and shoot the 8 in the right corner opening the balls . Doing that, the 13 holds the cb.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... (It does look as if one could cheat the middle pocket following the 1, and get to and do what you're proposing, by the way.) ...

I agree with leaving the 1 as an insurance ball if possible when dealing with the cluster. Angles are deceiving in these pictures. I just measured and the cue ball is about two balls above the 1 so no pocket cheating would be needed to get a good angle on the 3.

I think that in the same way it might be possible to play the 12-13 softly and without inside english. That is, it looks like from the 12 the cue ball might go straight into the rail and straight out to where the 12 is which leaves a half-ball shot on the 13 into the side.

As far as the original question, I think while the 12 is perfect, there will be other chances as you clear the cluster since the problem balls are in the rack, so use it if needed.

Of course, if the 11 fits in the side, all the balls fit already if you get the right positions. Clearing this table without bumping a ball pays double.

 

[Dan White]

Judging from the photo, you weren't only straight-in on the 13, but straight-in on the "wrong side" (i.e. rolling forward, the cue might have gotten too close to the 8 to comfortably stroke the next shot).

Yes. What I can say is that a follow shot with the intention of getting position on the 8 wasn't practical, unless maybe if you wanted to play the carom. With cheating to the right side of the pocket, it would be possible to graze the 4. You'd have to hit it pretty hard to get the balls to move much, and that might cause the cue ball to follow and scratch in the corner pocket.

 

[Dan White]

If the 8 is 100% in the corner I'd shoot the 4/11/8 combo and draw back for the 1 in the side.

But on the topic of whether to "save" the break ball, my theory is I don't have a break ball until all the clusters are open. If I need to shoot the potential break ball in order to open the cluster then I shoot it.

I ran 3 balls last week with this theory.

LOL. The 8 wasn't on in the corner. However, it was close to on and could be made to go with a carom off the 11 into the right corner pocket.

 

[Dan White]

I agree with leaving the 1 as an insurance ball if possible when dealing with the cluster. Angles are deceiving in these pictures. I just measured and the cue ball is about two balls above the 1 so no pocket cheating would be needed to get a good angle on the 3.

I played the 1 in the side, where there was a small angle. The cue ball ended up somewhere near the 3rd diamond on the long rail, just above the 3. My planned route, like 3andstop says, was to get on the 3 by shooting the 1. I had plan A and B. If I got closer to the rail than the 3 then I was going to use the 3 to break the cluster. If I didn't, I was going to use the 8 carom to open them. I preferred the carom because it would allow me to get past the 12 with a little more room for error. In other words I could follow past the 12 more aggressively because the sharper angle to the 8 isn't a problem with a dead carom. In reality the ball skipped and I ended up snookered by the 12 anyway. This is pool, after all. :bash:

 

[Dan White]

You're welcome! Needless to say you were there and have seen it in person, hard to tell from a camera perspective, but what I mean is best described physically: the cue ball, upon contact with the 8, hops or glances sideways (not as in a jump shot, much more slowly, as in a bad contact or skid) before it goes forward a rotation or two (not really a follow stroke either, easier shown than explained, but it's the kind of shot that one sees accidentally more often than on purpose, and that is probably of more use in Straight Pool than any other pool game) - all depends on whether the tangent line off the 8 (90 degrees off the "thick" contact point on the 8 - by "thick" I mean hitting the object ball as fully as possible, if necessary with a tip of outside English to account for the throw) does not cross the edge of the 11 (it doesn't appear to do so on the picture, but it's certainly close). In a worst case scenario, the cue ball can be made to hop over the edge of the 11 off the 8 with a tiny bit more force (and again, virtually no follow) to achieve the same result, in which case the balls would spread a bit more, although not much due to those "insulating" balls at any rate, when I say medium-slow, the shot needs to be hit hard enough for the 4 to clear the 10 into the corner pocket (maybe "medium-slow" is misleading, but when I explain this kind of stuff to students, they usually shoot much too hard and downwards, as if I'd asked them to jump the cue ball, when in reality, the cue ball will leave the playing surface on most shots anyway, with very little effort and without elevation, even when one tries to avoid it, climbing the object ball, so to speak, which isn't far from what one wants here).

(The Brits call what I'm describing a "stun-follow" or "stun-forward" shot in e.g. Snooker - it's really like a stop shot gone wrong, which is why I said one sees it done almost more often unintentionally.)

In all this, what I mean is not to hit the 13 full in the face, far from it, it's merely a matter of splitting the 13 and 5 in this order instead of vice versa (glancing off the bottom of the 13 into the 4), as this will change the leave regarding the 4 and 10, and also, because there is no use pushing the 10 into the 14 with the 11, recreating another cluster.

Interesting comments. Some follow up if I may: What is the purpose of hopping the cue ball slightly? If the tangent line misses the 11, then why wouldn't I execute the shot with a combination of speed and follow that allows the cue ball to slide past the 11 along the tangent line, and then follow forward into the 13? I'm guessing that you don't want much follow because you want the cue ball to stay put after hitting the 13/4. Is this why you need the hop -- so that you can hit more softly and still follow the tangent line for awhile?

I'm a little confused on the use of that shot but would love to learn it. I do understand the idea of jumping the cue ball into a cluster when there is a shallow angle, which is an extreme case, or the idea of skipping over the edge of an interfering ball, as you mention above.

 

[alstl]

LOL. The 8 wasn't on in the corner. However, it was close to on and could be made to go with a carom off the 11 into the right corner pocket.

I misunderstood your original post. In that case 1-10 is the simplest way to open the rack. Another option is 1-3-13 which preserves the 10 ball for a break ball but the 13 in the side is a tougher shot than 10 in the corner. I'd probably shoot the 1-10.