Saving The Valley Bar Box

Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I know a lot of players don’t like the Valley bar box for many reasons. Some just don’t like 7’ tables period. But the #1 reason I hear is that they have big pockets, bad rails, and slow cloth. Now I’m not saying a Valley can be made into a Diamond Smart table with pro cut pockets, but it can be made to play pretty damn close to one for as little as $200-$300.

There are probably hundreds of thousands of these tables in the US and other countries. I believe if Valley table owners when it was time to change cloth would put one of the faster clothes on, get a set of Ridgeback rails (angles are cut different), and have the pockets tightened to 4 ½” that players would be surprised how close to a Diamond it plays. One other thing to check is the 8 bolts (2 each) under the corner castings. Most of the older tables will be found to have at least 1 or 2 bolts loose or some missing all together. Tightening these takes a lot of the Valley clunk out of the rails. With the Ridgeback rails there is no more clunk. Johnnyt
 
Big differences between Diamond Smart Tables and Valley/Dynamo/et al. bar boxes!

Johnnyt said:
I know a lot of players don’t like the Valley bar box for many reasons. Some just don’t like 7’ tables period. But the #1 reason I hear is that they have big pockets, bad rails, and slow cloth. Now I’m not saying a Valley can be made into a Diamond Smart table with pro cut pockets, but it can be made to play pretty damn close to one for as little as $200-$300.

There are probably hundreds of thousands of these tables in the US and other countries. I believe if Valley table owners when it was time to change cloth would put one of the faster clothes on, get a set of Ridgeback rails (angles are cut different), and have the pockets tightened to 4 ½” that players would be surprised how close to a Diamond it plays. One other thing to check is the 8 bolts (2 each) under the corner castings. Most of the older tables will be found to have at least 1 or 2 bolts loose or some missing all together. Tightening these takes a lot of the Valley clunk out of the rails. With the Ridgeback rails there is no more clunk. Johnnyt
Click to expand...

JT:

No offense, but have you actually PLAYED on a Diamond "small box"?

I ask, because the differences between a Diamond "small box" (and I called it "small box" versus "bar box" for reasons you'll see in a bit) and a Valley bar box are not trivial.

Here's what I mean:

  1. Most of the Valley bar boxes I've played on over the years (e.g. in traveling pool leagues, bar tournaments, et al.) are 6-footers, not 7-footers. In fact, I discovered that 7-footer Valleys here in my area are quite rare. Reason: for space utilization reasons, when a bar owner is presented with the option to either have a single 7-footer, or two 6-footers, revenue comes into play. Naturally, he/she would obviously prefer to get double the coin drop with the 6-footers (and double the drinking/eating customers in that playing area) than the single coin drop revenue from the lone 7-footer. Diamond does not manufacture a 6-footer that I'm aware of.

  2. Although yes, it is a question of *who* prepares the table and how he/she cuts the rubber for the cushions (as well as what brand/model of rubber cushions used), the rubber cushions for the Valley are commodity items, and the pockets are standard sized for the Valley. And they're all WRONG, technically speaking from a pool table dimensions aspect! The Valley (and Dynamo) bar boxes are the only pool tables in existence (albeit they're a HUGE market share) where the side pockets are the EXACT same aperture size as the corner pockets. Walk up to any 8-footer, 9-footer, English pocket billiards table, or even a snooker table(!) and measure both the side and corner pockets. You'll find that the side pocket apertures are significantly larger than the corner pockets, for a reason -- this is to make up for the pocket approach angle on the side pockets, which can be greater than the corner pockets. (The maximum pocket approach angle on any corner pocket is no greater than 45 degrees to the pocket itself. Think about this for a second. With the corner pocket aperture facing 45 degrees into the "square" shape of that half of the table's playing surface, even if you send a ball down the rail into that corner pocket -- the maximum angle of approach to that corner pocket -- that approach angle is 45 degrees. However, because the side pockets are in the middle of the rail instead of the corner of two intersecting rails, you can cut a ball into the side pockets at a greater approach angle than that.) The Valley (and Dynamo, and possibly other brands) of tables are the only known tables where the world standard proportionately-sized side pocket apertures [in relation to the corner pocket apertures on that same table] VIOLATE this rule.

  3. The Valley/Dynamo/et al. bar boxes used special cue balls to facilitate a separate cue ball return, so that the cue ball didn't go into the object ball collection area, which would need coinage to release it. These non-standard cue balls were either oversized (e.g. the despised "grapefruit ball"), overweight (e.g. the Aramith Red Dot Dynamo -- a full ounce heavier than the object balls), or magnetic (e.g. the Aramith "green 'S'"-logoed ball). Each of these non-standard cue balls changed the play of the game itself! For example:

    * With the grapefruit ball, if you have an object ball frozen to the cushion and you need to cut that object ball down that cushion, you need to hit that shot cushion-first and hit it hard enough to compress the grapefruit ball into the cushion, so that the grapefruit ball's equator / centerline matched up with the equator / centerline of the object ball, in order to make sure the contact points were correct to send that object ball cleanly down the cushion.

    * With the overweight cue ball, you have to use different position play, because the overweight ball responded completely different from a standard cue ball (e.g. the 30- and 90-degree rules don't apply, because the heavier cue ball "crashes through" the object ball upon impact).

    * The magnetic cue ball has properties all its own that also affect position play -- e.g. it reacts differently with the cloth, because of its different finish, etc.

  4. Although I'm in the minority (and probably going to get a boatload of heat) for what I'm about to say, I think any tournament labeled "[so-and-so] Bar Table Championships" that use Diamond "small boxes" is a MISNOMER. That Diamond isn't a bar table. Just because that Diamond is a smaller table (in relation to 8- or 9-footers) and "takes a coin drop with a separate return path for the cue ball" does not make it a bar table by today's definition. I think [finally!] a person like Greg Sullivan came along and corrected those very old deficiencies in the Valley/Dynamo/et al. bar boxes, by having proportionately (read: correctly) sized side pockets and a standard cue ball that is the same weight, size, and same characteristics as the object balls.

This is why I call the Diamond 7-footers "small boxes" instead of bar boxes. They are so radically different from the Valleys/Dynamos/et al. that until Diamond can displace the market share of these old tables, they (the Diamond tables) are in a league all their own.

Sure, one can apply band aids to the Valleys/Dynamos/et al. by having better rubber installed on them -- e.g. with wider side pocket apertures, although that will entail modifying the construction of the side pocket itself in the skeleton of the table to accommodate), and modifying the cue ball return with the same optical sensor that the Diamond Smart Tables use. But the lion's share of the existing installed tables will still be what they are -- undersized/improperly cut side pockets, with non-standard cue balls, which bring a unique set of skills to these tables that are not necessary on the Diamond 7-footers.

Put it this way. A player proficient on the 9-footers doesn't have to do anything unique to his/her skillset to play on a Diamond 7-footer. It's just a smaller version of the 9-footer, and as long as you're adjusted to the superior playing characteristics of a Diamond table itself, all you have to do is adjust to the smaller playing real estate on the 7-footer. However, a player proficient on the 9-footers, going to the Valley/Dynamo 7-footer (or the more common 6-footers in some areas, like mine) has a rude awakening coming to him/her, with the non-standard cue balls and those side pockets. (I say this with the assumption that the reader understands that my scenario assumes the player proficient on the 9-footer doesn't commonly play in the Valley/Dynamo/et al. bar table environment, and hasn't accumulated the skills in dealing with said side pockets and non-standard cue balls.)

All this said, if I had to choose between a Diamond 7-footer or a Valley/Dynamo/et al. table to fit in a small space that won't accommodate a 9-footer, I'd choose the Diamond in a heartbeat, because it better prepares you for play on the 9-footer. With the Diamond "small box," you're not having to build the special skill set needed to deal with undersized side pockets or non-standard cue balls. (And yes, I know with a home table that has its coin drop disabled, a standard cue ball can be used which returns in the object ball collection area.) The question is, if one is pondering a small table, where does he/she target his/her skillset? To prepare for league play at bars? If that's the case, a Valley/Dynamo/et al. table with the non-standard cue ball is best. To prepare for playing on a 9-footer? The Diamond 7-footer is the best choice.

I hope that helps explain it.

Thoughts?
-Sean
 
Valley Tables

I just Looovvveeess my Valley Bar Boxes!,especially the double shimned ones!:)


David Harcrow
 
Valleys are good tables, that's what a bar box is in my opinion. A bar table is a Diamond, I don't use the terms interchangeably.
 
There are so many folks out there that are not pool snobs like most of us here. They don't care about cloth, pocket size, pocket cut, etc. They just want to put in a dollar and play a game of pool at the bar with their friends. The vally bar box is not going anywhere. There are too many of them out there. The Diamond serves the aforementioned and the snob.
 
Valleys vs Diamond

One of the rooms I play in has all Valley tables and Diamond 9'. The other room has all Diamond tables (9' & 7'). When playing at the room with Valleys (my favorite room)I overhead a couple players commenting about how poorly the Valleys played vs the Diamonds which was in their home room. Both of them were APA 7 level players which doesn't necessarily mean they are world beaters but they aren't beginners either. Unknown to them the Valleys had upgraded Brunswick super speed cushions and Simonis 860 cloth(obviusly they could see the cloth) yet their comments were how much faster the Diamond tables played and how adversely their game was affected on Valley tables. I suppose they felt obligated to point ou the inferiority of Valleys. They didn't know that Diamond does not put superior Artemis cushions on their 7' tables; only on 9' tables. The well kept Valleys play great! Personally I have never seen or experienced a table that overcame a good player. The better player wins on good or lousy tables but they have to adjust to playing conditions which is what it takes to be a good player. You think Nascar drivers only win on the tracks they like? I have never had a problem transitioning from a Valley to a Diamond. Could be Im not a good enough player to notice. One point I won't contest is Valleys lack of snob appeal that Diamonds have. My home tables are both Diamonds and they are great and when playing at home I become the perfect snob. Still play the same though, lol.
 
Most of the Bars, and Pool Room is the Valley of the Sun have BAR BOXES, have Valleys, or Dynomos, only a couple of places have Diamonds.

To me good cloth, clean balls, are more important that the name Diamond. Alexanders had Diamonds before they closed, and I honestly did not fell warm and fuzzy when I played on their Diamonds.
 
6 foot table????=bar box????

where i come from a "bar box" is a 7 footer...
the only time ive ever seen a cut down 7 was in rooms way too small to have a pool table in the first place.

theres at least 100 bars with pooltables in my area....they are all 7 foot tables except for 2 or 3.
 
RD3P said:
6 foot table????=bar box????

where i come from a "bar box" is a 7 footer...
the only time ive ever seen a cut down 7 was in rooms way too small to have a pool table in the first place.

theres at least 100 bars with pooltables in my area....they are all 7 foot tables except for 2 or 3.
Click to expand...

Valley made a 6' bar box. Most of them were/are in the NE. I grew up in NY and they were all over the place (bars) in the 1960's and 1970's.
But I was talking about 7' Valley's. They play a lot different than the 6'. Johnnyt
 
RD3P said:
6 foot table????=bar box????

where i come from a "bar box" is a 7 footer...
the only time ive ever seen a cut down 7 was in rooms way too small to have a pool table in the first place.

theres at least 100 bars with pooltables in my area....they are all 7 foot tables except for 2 or 3.
Click to expand...

RD3P:

I know, that might strike you as strange, but if you measure the playing surface of that "7-footer," you might be surprised to learn it's not 7-feet at all. Again, the key operative word is "playing surface," not the bitter-end -to- bitter-end measurement, as described here:

http://pooltablesshop.com/Pool-table-measurement

You'll find that on Valley's website, every model they offer is available in the 6-foot size:

http://valley-dynamo.com/

The unfortunate thing is, Valley advertises their tables using the *external* measurement, to cater to bar/room owners looking to get quick answers on what size table to spec out for his/her room. Again, those measurements you see on Valley's website are external measurements (i.e. bitter-end to bitter-end), not the measurement of the playing surface. Many folks don't realize this, and think their "88 inch by 50 inch" table (as advertised by Valley) is a "7-footer." It isn't. Subtract 6 inches from either side to compensate for the width of the top surface of the rail + cushion on either end, and you arrive at the true playing surface size, which is 6 feet. (Or, you can just take your tape measure to league with you and measure the playing surface yourself.)

I have a feeling a lot of folks are going to have a surprise coming when they do this... :eek:

-Sean
 
Johnnyt said:
Valley made a 6' bar box. Most of them were/are in the NE. I grew up in NY and they were all over the place (bars) in the 1960's and 1970's.
But I was talking about 7' Valley's. They play a lot different than the 6'. Johnnyt
Click to expand...

ive never played on a 6 footer....that would be a tuff game of 8ball with everything packed into such little space...


sfleinen (sp?)
bottom line is they are refered to as 7 footers around here and they are what valley consideres 7 footer.... a six foot table would have to be smaller...

7,8,9
7 is the most common in bars...no 9 footer at all round here except in pool halls

7 feet is 84 inches not 88 and 3.5 feet is 42 inches not 50......ive never heard of an 88x50 table but


edit

after looking at valleys website....they also have a 93x53 or "7 footer" and 101x56 "8 footer" the 88x50 would be "6 footer" they dont make 9 footer i dont think in coin op.....so your right they arent standard but i believe players call the 93x53 a 7 footer


the 88x50 would have more than 10 percent less play serface than the 93x53 and 23percent less play surface than 101x56
 
Last edited:
RD3P said:
ive never played on a 6 footer....that would be a tuff game of 8ball with everything packed into such little space...
bottom line is they are refered to as 7 footers around here and they are what valley consideres 7 footer.... a six foot table would have to be smaller by a foot reguardless.

7,8,9 7 is the most common in bars...no 9 footer at all round here except in pool halls
Click to expand...

RD3P:

Again, Valley is the only pool table manufacturer that does that -- to advertise their tables using the *external* measurements. Every other table manufacturer (including Diamond) advertise their tables using the *playing surface size*, and often include the external measurements in parenthesis or such. Compare a Diamond 7-footer to a Valley side-by-side, and you'll see the difference (that is, unless, the Valley is the rarer "true" 7-footer).

-Sean
 
Johnnyt said:
I know a lot of players don’t like the Valley bar box for many reasons. Some just don’t like 7’ tables period. But the #1 reason I hear is that they have big pockets, bad rails, and slow cloth. Now I’m not saying a Valley can be made into a Diamond Smart table with pro cut pockets, but it can be made to play pretty damn close to one for as little as $200-$300.

There are probably hundreds of thousands of these tables in the US and other countries. I believe if Valley table owners when it was time to change cloth would put one of the faster clothes on, get a set of Ridgeback rails (angles are cut different), and have the pockets tightened to 4 ½” that players would be surprised how close to a Diamond it plays. One other thing to check is the 8 bolts (2 each) under the corner castings. Most of the older tables will be found to have at least 1 or 2 bolts loose or some missing all together. Tightening these takes a lot of the Valley clunk out of the rails. With the Ridgeback rails there is no more clunk. Johnnyt
Click to expand...


That's three reasons and you left off the fourth - that stupid !)*$#&@!*#$ cue ball!:mad:

I'm sure you're right that they can be made to play nicely, but does ANYBODY do it!?! I've certainly never seen one anywhere that had been recovered or worked on anytime in recent memory.
 
sfleinen said:
RD3P:

I know, that might strike you as strange, but if you measure the playing surface of that "7-footer," you might be surprised to learn it's not 7-feet at all. Again, the key operative word is "playing surface," not the bitter-end -to- bitter-end measurement, as described here:

http://pooltablesshop.com/Pool-table-measurement

You'll find that on Valley's website, every model they offer is available in the 6-foot size:

http://valley-dynamo.com/

The unfortunate thing is, Valley advertises their tables using the *external* measurement, to cater to bar/room owners looking to get quick answers on what size table to spec out for his/her room. Again, those measurements you see on Valley's website are external measurements (i.e. bitter-end to bitter-end), not the measurement of the playing surface. Many folks don't realize this, and think their "88 inch by 50 inch" table (as advertised by Valley) is a "7-footer." It isn't. Subtract 6 inches from either side to compensate for the width of the top surface of the rail + cushion on either end, and you arrive at the true playing surface size, which is 6 feet. (Or, you can just take your tape measure to league with you and measure the playing surface yourself.)

I have a feeling a lot of folks are going to have a surprise coming when they do this... :eek:

-Sean
Click to expand...

I don't get the point here. Nine foot tables are advertised as 9' and are only 108". Same with all 7' and 8' tables. The playing surface is smaller than 7,8,9'. Johnnyt
 
RD3P said:
[...]
sfleinen (sp?)
bottom line is they are refered to as 7 footers around here and they are what valley consideres 7 footer.... a six foot table would have to be smaller by a foot reguardless.

7,8,9
7 is the most common in bars...no 9 footer at all round here except in pool halls

7 feet is 84 inches not 88 and 3.5 feet is 42 inches not 50......ive never heard of an 88x50 table
Click to expand...

(This is Sean, btw.) That's what I'm trying to share with you -- that a 7 x 3.5 table is customarily advertised -- by every other manufacturer except Valley, that is -- as an 84 x 42 (or 78" x 39'' in some cases) table. This measurement does not include the extra length and width added by the top surface of the rails. Here's a sample table by Valley, which shows the Cougar table (very common) and the available "sizes":

cougardimmesions.jpg


Again, notice this is a full size measurement, including height and weight. This is NOT the playing surface size! So when I mentioned "88 inch by 50 inch" in my earlier post, I pinched that info directly from Valley's website.

If we try to squeeze a true 7-foot playing surface slate bed (again, measuring 84" x 42" -- but the slate is actually larger than that due to shelf length under the rails) into that 88-inch x 50-inch table, we come up with 4 inches x 8 inches left over. Divide that "leftover" by two, and you mean to tell me the top surface of the rails -- the part that you'd rest your bridge hand on for a cue-ball-frozen-to-the-cushion shot -- is only 2 inches on the short rail, and 4 inches on the long rail? I don't think so.

Perhaps this is the measurement that many league players are used to. But outside of the bar table environment, every table measurement I've ever seen was the measurement of the playing surface (a 9-footer's playing surface *truly* is 100" x 50" -- you have to add extra on to that to get the real external dimensions of the table).

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
 
Last edited:
RD3P said:
7,8,9
7 is the most common in bars...no 9 footer at all round here except in pool halls

7 feet is 84 inches not 88 and 3.5 feet is 42 inches not 50......ive never heard of an 88x50 table but


edit

after looking at valleys website....they also have a 93x53 or "7 footer" and 101x56 "8 footer" the 88x50 would be "6 footer" they dont make 9 footer i dont think in coin op.....so your right they arent standard but i believe players call the 93x53 a 7 footer...

sorry for any misunderstandings as i didnt know the actual sizes and had to lloook them up

so i edit many times
the 88x50 would have more than 10 percent less play serface than the 93x53 and 23percent less play surface than 101x56
Click to expand...


i think the table i play on at bars are all the 93x53 or what people refer too as a 7 footer....people call them 7 footers you see...doesnt matter the measurement.

i have a 35 year old "8 foot" brunswick heritage.....everyone refers to it as 8 foot when talking size...i dont care what the actual measurement is.
 
Last edited:
RD3P said:
i think the table i play on at bars are all the 93x53 or what people refer too as a 7 footer....people call them 7 footers you see...doesnt matter the measurement
Click to expand...

RD3P:

Ah, 93x53 is a big difference, and you're right -- the percentage of playing real estate can certainly be "felt."

Up here in the Northeast, the 88" x 50" table "size" (again, that's Valley's terminology, not the pool industry's terminology) is more common. Probably because of space and coin drop revenue considerations, many establishments opt for the smaller size, because they can squeeze more of them into a certain space size, and get more simultaneous coin drop.

Out where you are, considerations might be completely different.
-Sean
 
valley barbox

As someone who has only been back playing a year or so after quitting for around 15yrs, they didn't have diamond barboxes when I played. I can say that it doesn't play at all like a barbox. The speed of the cloth along with the way it jumps off the rails changes the way a person plays completely when compared to a valley. They also come off the rail much shorter than anyother table. They play more like a mini big table not a barbox. I can also add that the 9ft diamond plays completley different than a gold crown. As a oldtimer, I can say that diamonds certainly don't call for a powerful stroke, but more of a pocket speed stroke with no popping the ball. Give me a valley and a goldcrown anyday! I don't think I could live long enough to ajust to the diamonds, which i admit is a big handicap since diamonds seem to be everywhere!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top