SBX Alex vs. Earl - foul or no foul

Shermanscs

Steve sherman
Silver Member
I was at the Super Billiards Expo this week and I was wondering if anyone else in this forum saw this and has an opinion if it was a foul or not. Before I start, I want to say that I am a fan of both of these players and it is going to sound like I am questioning the ethics of Alex Pagulayan, which I am not. I happen to think he is quite a good ambassador for the sport and I love watching him play. I also think he is one of the most fun, fan friendly players out there.

With all those caveats out of the way, here is what happened.
Alex was behind in the match to Earl in an elimination round. Earl was on the hill and Alex was coming back & was about 5 or so games behind. Alex breaks and the cue ball comes flying back straight to the left corner pocket. Alex quickly puts his hand inside the corner pocket to catch the cue ball, then just as the cue hits the corner pocket, in an instant, he quickly pulls his hand away. From the stands it gave the illusion that his hand hit the cue ball, preventing it from dropping in the pocket. Earl protested to Alex about him putting his hand in the pocket and claimed he touched the ball, preventing it from scratching. Alex denied touching the ball & continued to play the rack, winning another rack or so.

Ultimately, Earl won the match anyway, so it really didn't change the outcome of the game. But I am interested to know if anyone else out there saw that match and has an opinion on whether or not it looked as if Alex interfered with the ball.

Nonetheless, it was a very entertaining match and both players played their hearts out.

- Steve
 
I was at the Super Billiards Expo this week and I was wondering if anyone else in this forum saw this and has an opinion if it was a foul or not. Before I start, I want to say that I am a fan of both of these players and it is going to sound like I am questioning the ethics of Alex Pagulayan, which I am not. I happen to think he is quite a good ambassador for the sport and I love watching him play. I also think he is one of the most fun, fan friendly players out there.

With all those caveats out of the way, here is what happened.
Alex was behind in the match to Earl in an elimination round. Earl was on the hill and Alex was coming back & was about 5 or so games behind. Alex breaks and the cue ball comes flying back straight to the left corner pocket. Alex quickly puts his hand inside the corner pocket to catch the cue ball, then just as the cue hits the corner pocket, in an instant, he quickly pulls his hand away. From the stands it gave the illusion that his hand hit the cue ball, preventing it from dropping in the pocket. Earl protested to Alex about him putting his hand in the pocket and claimed he touched the ball, preventing it from scratching. Alex denied touching the ball & continued to play the rack, winning another rack or so.

Ultimately, Earl won the match anyway, so it really didn't change the outcome of the game. But I am interested to know if anyone else out there saw that match and has an opinion on whether or not it looked as if Alex interfered with the ball.

Nonetheless, it was a very entertaining match and both players played their hearts out.

- Steve
Didn't see it but you really shouldn't do that 'cause it leads to disagreements such as you said if not outright argument/fights. Keep your hands away from table til ball is done rolling. Simple as that. Go Earl!!!
 
I was at the Super Billiards Expo this week and I was wondering if anyone else in this forum saw this and has an opinion if it was a foul or not. Before I start, I want to say that I am a fan of both of these players and it is going to sound like I am questioning the ethics of Alex Pagulayan, which I am not. I happen to think he is quite a good ambassador for the sport and I love watching him play. I also think he is one of the most fun, fan friendly players out there.

With all those caveats out of the way, here is what happened.
Alex was behind in the match to Earl in an elimination round. Earl was on the hill and Alex was coming back & was about 5 or so games behind. Alex breaks and the cue ball comes flying back straight to the left corner pocket. Alex quickly puts his hand inside the corner pocket to catch the cue ball, then just as the cue hits the corner pocket, in an instant, he quickly pulls his hand away. From the stands it gave the illusion that his hand hit the cue ball, preventing it from dropping in the pocket. Earl protested to Alex about him putting his hand in the pocket and claimed he touched the ball, preventing it from scratching. Alex denied touching the ball & continued to play the rack, winning another rack or so.

Ultimately, Earl won the match anyway, so it really didn't change the outcome of the game. But I am interested to know if anyone else out there saw that match and has an opinion on whether or not it looked as if Alex interfered with the ball.

Nonetheless, it was a very entertaining match and both players played their hearts out.

- Steve
The shooting player placing his hand in the pocket to catch a CB headed towards that pocket should be an automatic ball-in-hand foul. I don't care whether or not the rules address this, I don't care whether the CB comes close to touching his/her hand or at what point they remove their hand - it's a foul. Certainly for a pro level tournament, this should be a no brainer call!
 
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Was that an elimination round - I know Earl played him 3rd round winners and won.
I think Alex may have lost again in the losers side to someone else. the draw is not complete
 
Was that an elimination round - I know Earl played him 3rd round winners and won.
I think Alex may have lost again in the losers side to someone else. the draw is not complete
That was a final 8 on the winners side match that was Alex's only loss

Final 16 players was single elimination

PRIZE FUND:

1st: $10,000 & Trophy
2nd: $5000
3/4th: $3500 each
5-8th: $2500 each
9-16th: $2000 each

Capture.PNG
Capture1.PNG
 
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The shooting player placing his hand in the pocket to catch a CB headed towards that pocket should be an automatic ball-in-hand foul. I don't care whether or not the rules address this, I don't care whether the CB comes close to touching his/her hand or at what point they remove their hand - it's a foul. Certainly for a pro level tournament, this should be a no brainer call!

This is my take as well. (From a complete "outsider" in the world of pool... Take it as an opinion of a Joe Q. Public.).

Edit: consider how good at slight-of-hand some guys are. Reaching, tapping, interacting in any way with the table while balls are in motion seems highly suspect to me.
 
While agreeing that no one should put their hand in a pocket to catch the ball and it should be a foul if the ball is not caught and does not go in as the player may have thought it was going to, I have to say that Alex has always shown himself to be of the character and integrity that I would accept that he did not touch the cue ball. At that point his opponent should either accept that he did not foul or ask for a referee to make the decision in terms of the hand in the pocket issue.
 
Didn't see it but you really shouldn't do that 'cause it leads to disagreements such as you said if not outright argument/fights. Keep your hands away from table til ball is done rolling. Simple as that. Go Earl!!!

Bad habit developed from practice carrying over into the game. Another is the tendency for many pros to avoid using the rake because they don't want to take the time when practicing to get it from under the table. I've seen it cost players some very big matches.
 
On another I heard earl wasn’t wearing his finger extensions .. is that true
 
While agreeing that no one should put their hand in a pocket to catch the ball and it should be a foul if the ball is not caught and does not go in as the player may have thought it was going to, I have to say that Alex has always shown himself to be of the character and integrity that I would accept that he did not touch the cue ball. At that point his opponent should either accept that he did not foul or ask for a referee to make the decision in terms of the hand in the pocket issue.
As I stated previously, it makes absolutely no difference if the player touched the CB or not, or the player's reputation, the act of placing his hand in the pocket with balls still moving on the table should be an automatic foul.
 
While agreeing that no one should put their hand in a pocket to catch the ball and it should be a foul if the ball is not caught and does not go in as the player may have thought it was going to, I have to say that Alex has always shown himself to be of the character and integrity that I would accept that he did not touch the cue ball. At that point his opponent should either accept that he did not foul or ask for a referee to make the decision in terms of the hand in the pocket issue.

Alex can be very entertaining but he is also very clever. I'll just leave it at that. If there was any question about whether he effected the path of the cue ball by placing his hand in the pocket, it would be a foul. He has absolutely no business putting his hand there and he knows that! :groucho:
 
As I stated previously, it makes absolutely no difference if the player touched the CB or not, or the player's reputation, the act of placing his hand in the pocket with balls still moving on the table should be an automatic foul.
Here's the CSI/BCAPL rule:

d. Placing hand in pocket: It is a deliberate foul if you catch any ball that is falling into a pocket, or place your hand into a pocket while any ball in play is in motion near that pocket. (AR p. 97)

Under the World Standardized Rules, it is not a foul to simply place your hand anywhere -- you would have to touch a ball for it to be a foul. Of course the WSR assume that you have a ref.
 
Here's the CSI/BCAPL rule:

d. Placing hand in pocket: It is a deliberate foul if you catch any ball that is falling into a pocket, or place your hand into a pocket while any ball in play is in motion near that pocket. (AR p. 97)

Under the World Standardized Rules, it is not a foul to simply place your hand anywhere -- you would have to touch a ball for it to be a foul. Of course the WSR assume that you have a ref.

Bob, I think you would agree that as a competent referee sometimes you must make a judgement call, even when you don't have a clear view of everything, like seeing his finger placement in the pocket. There is a trick to doing this using your thumb and it is barely noticeable unless you are standing right over him.
 
Didn't see it but you really shouldn't do that 'cause it leads to disagreements such as you said if not outright argument/fights. Keep your hands away from table til ball is done rolling. Simple as that. Go Earl!!!

Hear hear!

What he said.
 
Alex can be very entertaining but he is also very clever. I'll just leave it at that. If there was any question about whether he effected the path of the cue ball by placing his hand in the pocket, it would be a foul. He has absolutely no business putting his hand there and he knows that! :groucho:

Hear hear!

What Jay said.
 
Here's the CSI/BCAPL rule:

d. Placing hand in pocket: It is a deliberate foul if you catch any ball that is falling into a pocket, or place your hand into a pocket while any ball in play is in motion near that pocket. (AR p. 97)

Under the World Standardized Rules, it is not a foul to simply place your hand anywhere -- you would have to touch a ball for it to be a foul. Of course the WSR assume that you have a ref.
I would put this act in the same category as the recent incident in which Karl Boyes popped his cue on the table surface close to where the CB was headed towards the corner pocket for a scratch, and then the CB strangely changed directions - even though it was extremely unlikely this action had any connection to the CB changing directions. Bottom line - Unsportsmanlike Conduct - Ball-in-Hand for the opponent.
 
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