SCAMMED

jimmyg said:
Sounds reasonable....giving up buyer's protection in order to save 3% no so much.
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When somebody is selling something and wants to do friends and family I simply offer the three percent on top of what I am buying it for. I compare it to a buyer's fee at some auctions. If I want something bad enough to buy it I don't mind paying another three percent to cover the PayPal. I have never purchased from anyone that insisted on Friends and Family after I offered to pay the fees. Not no but hell no! Sellers that refuse to allow buyers protection that the buyer is paying for scare hell out of me, I'm outa there!

Hu
 
There are scammer/dishonest sellers, but also scammer/dishonest buyers. PayPal tends to side with the buyer and this opens the door to buyer fraud.

Buyers get their item and claim it was an empty box. Buyer wants to return an item but sends back a different cheaper item. Buyer wants a partial refund saying an item was damaged in shipping or in a lesser condition than described. There are nearly as many ways for a buyers to scam as there are for sellers.

This is why some sellers want F&F or some other no-strings payment...they have probably been burned by buyers taking advantage of the paypal buyer protection.

I am involved in another hobby where items between $1,000 and $35,000 are bought and sold on forums. The level of trust that sellers need to build is on a whole other level. Almost anything over a few thousand is bank wire transfer only and even for sales at the low end most sellers will only accept PayPal if you are a member with an established track record.

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Thunder Thighs said:
3 pages and still no AZB handle?
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In a thread he started in NPR he yelled this:

"DON'T KNOW IF THIS WHERE I'M CAN POST THIS BUT SOMEONE WHO IS A MEMBER OF AZ BILLIARDS. SCAM ME OR TRY TOO, SAW MY POST IN THE WANTED SECTION AND CONTACTED ME ABOUT A CUE. .................. LAST I DONT KNOW WHAT HE GOES BY ON HERE. "

So, he's saying the guy somehow contacted him thru AZ but without revealing his handle????????? I don't see where he listed an email or phone number in his profile or WTB ads so for now the guys story makes ZERO SENSE.

Edit: I see now he listed his phone number in an older thread about a different topic so a scammer could have texted him, said he was an AZB member and then scammed the guy.
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Even money says the guy cried wolf too fast. Which would actually make him a girl. Or maybe he just identified as a young girl that day.
 
mikemosconi said:
Nobody is arguing that we all should NOT be paying Pay Pal via F&F, just for the reasons you state- my point was that IMO, if this site is going to have a BUSINESS section- which it does ( For Sale items) - then it should conduct the site in a business fashion and not allow sellers to offer the F&F option.

I dealt with very honest people on my cue purchases here, but after some careful consideration- I am done with Pay pal F&F- not going to push my luck any further on cue purchases without protection here or anywhere else. I also do not think that buyers should be paying a seller's selling fees. The guys selling cues here do not pay any fees to AZ Billiards- as far as I know- yet they still want us buyers to absorb their Pay Pal fees if we want protection- kind of B.S. if you ask me.

Next cue I buy here I am going to negotiate a price with shipping and THEN negotiate how the Pay Pal fee gets paid- if a seller wants to walk away from a $1500 cue sale for $45 or a split on the $45 then let them walk - that's my position going forward.
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Your position is valid, but I don't see Azb as having either authority or obligation regarding how folks conduct their business.

Somewhat akin to a person seeing a pool room address, going there and learning the hard way what the rough side of town looks like.

The f&f risks are widely known and presented to the buyer by PayPal every time one attempts to use it.
 
Z-Nole said:
Even money says the guy cried wolf too fast. Which would actually make him a girl. Or maybe he just identified as a young girl that day.
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The post above yours is completely logical...may not have been an Azb member at all.

As they say: a cut hand learns best.
 
PayPal offers two levels of service: Buyer protection with the seller paying the fee or the buyer paying the fee.
Free transfers with no protection.

Zelle offers free transfers no protection.
CashApp offers free transfers no protection.
Venmo offers free transfers unless you charge it to your credit card, then there is a fee, no protection.

You are not "ripping off" PayPal if you choose the unprotected service, called Friends & Family. Just no fee = no protection. Unless you have a high level of trust in the seller, you should insist and use PayPal's protected service. You have a choice.

If you want unprotected transfers you have many choices and many sellers accept more than one service.

If it's a seller that accepts credit cards directly, it's a no brainer.
 
CLAUD said:
PayPal offers two levels of service: Buyer protection with the seller paying the fee or the buyer paying the fee.
Free transfers with no protection.

Zelle offers free transfers no protection.
CashApp offers free transfers no protection.
Venmo offers free transfers unless you charge it to your credit card, then there is a fee, no protection.

You are not "ripping off" PayPal if you choose the unprotected service, called Friends & Family. Just no fee = no protection. Unless you have a high level of trust in the seller, you should insist and use PayPal's protected service. You have a choice.

If you want unprotected transfers you have many choices and many sellers accept more than one service.

If it's a seller that accepts credit cards directly, it's a no brainer.
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I think if you read over the PayPal descriptions which I'll grant I haven't done in years, Friends and Family is for transferring funds between friends and family. Friend and Family isn't meant for any other transaction. I have transferred thousands between myself and pool or poker playing friends that got themselves in a bind. Had some pretty damned nice jelly shipped to me too! None of these transactions involved buying or selling and I didn't hesitate to use Friends and Family.

When you buy or sell using Friends and Family you are indeed ripping off PayPal and abusing the service. If PayPal meant for Friends and Family to be used for unprotected purchases I am sure they would say so or start another option that specified it was for purchases with no protection.

Those that use Friends and Family to avoid paying transaction fees then get ripped off themselves have no whine coming. They are a lot like would be pool hustlers that find out their fish was really a shark! Tough potato. If you think that less than one in thirty-three of your transactions will go bad and you don't have ethical issues with ducking PayPal fees, go for it and just play the odds. However, those that do this shouldn't whine when they get burned. Unless they are total dummies they weighed the odds before giving up protections for three percent.

By the way, with unknown sellers I often use PayPal rather than a credit card because I don't know how trustworthy they are to be giving my credit card information to and I have no idea how well they protect their financial data. That can be well worth the PayPal three percent in my opinion, I am buying without setting myself up for ID theft! Some small items are offered for just that purpose.

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
I think if you read over the PayPal descriptions which I'll grant I haven't done in years, Friends and Family is for transferring funds between friends and family. Friend and Family isn't meant for any other transaction. I have transferred thousands between myself and pool or poker playing friends that got themselves in a bind. Had some pretty damned nice jelly shipped to me too! None of these transactions involved buying or selling and I didn't hesitate to use Friends and Family.

When you buy or sell using Friends and Family you are indeed ripping off PayPal and abusing the service. If PayPal meant for Friends and Family to be used for unprotected purchases I am sure they would say so or start another option that specified it was for purchases with no protection.

Those that use Friends and Family to avoid paying transaction fees then get ripped off themselves have no whine coming. They are a lot like would be pool hustlers that find out their fish was really a shark! Tough potato. If you think that less than one in thirty-three of your transactions will go bad and you don't have ethical issues with ducking PayPal fees, go for it and just play the odds. However, those that do this shouldn't whine when they get burned. Unless they are total dummies they weighed the odds before giving up protections for three percent.

By the way, with unknown sellers I often use PayPal rather than a credit card because I don't know how trustworthy they are to be giving my credit card information to and I have no idea how well they protect their financial data. That can be well worth the PayPal three percent in my opinion, I am buying without setting myself up for ID theft! Some small items are offered for just that purpose.

Hu
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Not arguing with the 3% being a fair price to pay for protection. Any transaction with someone you don't know is risky and the fee that should be paid by the seller is sometimes transferred to the buyer. I have never seen a business request friends & family. This seems to be the purview of individuals.
I have never asked anyone to pay me through friends & family. I have however paid for 2 or 3 small purchases using friends & family, never anything major. I have a rather low tolerance for risk, some don't. That's their choice.
 
If you do not want to pay the three percent, then it is your choice to scam, or not scam PayPal.

if you can scam and sleep will at night, great fo

The three percent is like insurance you may never need, but wish you had when you need the protection.

Recently send Cue to buyer, just the insurance was $45.00, had Cue been lost or damaged, I had protection.
 
It shouldn't be about buyer protection. It is on the seller to incur the fee. One clown started this, then another, then the percentage jumped from 2.9 to 3 to 3.5 to 4.

If the deal is good, I just agree to pay 3%. No big deal. But asking 4% or more just tells me the seller is too retarded to figure the final cost to be made whole and just move on, this deal and the rest.
 
The buyer always pays all costs. Just because PayPal fees, insurance, and "free shipping" are all calculated in purchase price doesn't mean the buyer isn't paying for them! People came into my business regularly in one city wanting to trade something for something I had. I told them fine, but I never trade even. I had $15,000 a month nut to cover in the mid-eighties which meant I would be closing the doors in three months or less trading even.

Hu
 
Seems like a knee-jerk reaction to a slow seller or seller that's bad at communication, maybe both. OP hasn't posted since.
 
mikemosconi said:
I have bought 4 or 5 higher end cues ($1,000+ ) off some AZers here in the last 3 years. I paid Pay Pal F&F each time- I did not like it - but never had a problem- thank goodness! I don't think that I will do Pay Pal F&F again - not sure if my CC company would back me if I used F&F - I do not use bank accounts to pay- only CC via pay pal.

If I were running this site I would not allow sellers to request F&F - just state the price you want for your cue- if the Pay pal fees are too much for you to absorb, then add them into your price.

This recent example of fraud has me feeling that I will take no more risks to save a lousy $30 to $60 on fees- just not worth it to me anymore.

I really feel that the site manager here needs to look seriously at eliminating requests for Pay Pal F&F. These ARE business transactions and should be conducted as such- period.
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It's 30 bucks per 1000....not worth it to buy without protection.

Use a credit card to fund PayPal... Everytime
 
maha said:
if you do f&f for a buying transaction, you are indeed scamming pay pal for their commission. so its like a pick pocket crying about thieves after his car gets stolen while he is out at his work.
what goes around comes around.

if this guy didnt use it then all he has to do is cancel the sale. or if he was smart and used his credit card to fund his paypal he has two ways to stop the sale.
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I don't believe you can raise a chargeback on your credit card if you used paypal. Paypal will deny the claim on the basis that they have completed their obligation of passing your money to the seller. You will have to use the paypal dispute resolution service in this case (if you paid as goods and services, that is).
 
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ninjaturtle said:
SCAMMED SO I POSTED ON THE WANTED PAGE, I PERSON WHO HAS A AZ BILLIARD ACCT. CONTACTED ME ABOUT THE CUE I WAS LOOKING FOR AND THEN SEND ME PICS. MAKED A DEAL TOLD ME THE ONLY WAY TO PAY WAS PAYPAL SO I DID. AFTER I PAID ALL COMMUNICATION STOPPED. SO HERE IS THE PERSON, NAME, ADDRESS, PHONE, AND PAY PAYPAL ACCT. BATISTA 401 N. E. MIZNER BLVD BOCA RATON, FL. 33432. 1-352-612-9490, PETER PATS 33, HAVILAH,ESTATE BALLE,GOS 524678, Patspeter34@gmail.com FOUND OUT THE ONLY WAY TO CHAT WAS BY TEXT ONLY. AND HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING SINCE PAYMENT. SO HE SOMEWHERE HERE ON AZ BILLIARDS. THANKS FOR THE POST
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Did you file a scam report with PayPal ? I've had great success with them. Got reimbursed all 3 times and they went after the scammer !
Good luck
 
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