Schons are what end cues?
- Thread starter zilemok
- Start date
It's a matter of perception/preference and price range. Schon cues are high end due to pricing, quality of build/playability/retention of value and desirability. I would place Mezz up there, too. Joss would be mid-high end. I don't have an opinion on anything else, since I haven't tried others recently and they'd be all over the place based on individual preferences.
I have developed the opinion that Schons are the BMW of pool cues.
Whether a BMW is a high-end car or a low-end car depends on who you are asking. The average car buyer would consider it a high-end automobile. A car enthusiast with means may consider it to be just another "production" car.
IMHO, the quality, looks, and performance for the price point they sell in are unmatched. As far as playability, I'll take my Schon with OB-1 shaft combo over anthing any day. And I would be perfectly happy driving an M3 to work every day. For now I'm happy with my G35. (The Lucasi of cars...maybe?).
-Mike
Whether a BMW is a high-end car or a low-end car depends on who you are asking. The average car buyer would consider it a high-end automobile. A car enthusiast with means may consider it to be just another "production" car.
IMHO, the quality, looks, and performance for the price point they sell in are unmatched. As far as playability, I'll take my Schon with OB-1 shaft combo over anthing any day. And I would be perfectly happy driving an M3 to work every day. For now I'm happy with my G35. (The Lucasi of cars...maybe?).
-Mike
In order to bring some focus to future posts, the OP should give everyone an idea what he thinks the price range is for these categories he mentioned as low-mid-high ranges,
Personally, I'd rank Schon cues in the mid-range, until you get into the Schon's "Elite" cue series or the recent Tribute Cues Deanoc spearheaded. I would not otherwise place Schon in the high end range because if you did that, where do you rank other cue-makers like Scruggs, Mottey, Tascarella, Mobley, Richard Black, Joel Hercek, Black Boar, Ginacue, Searing, James White, Ed Prewitt, etc. These guys soar above the likes of any Schon cue ever made ? It's important to try and realistically clarify this early on but only the OP can do that since it's his thread. Otherwise future posts on this thread will lose sight of the genuine reality of pool cues.
Let's face the cold, hard facts of pool cues. There are cue-makers and there are good cue-makers and of course some horrible ones too, and then there's "great" cue-makers. The ones you lust to own one of their masterpieces and the cues just cost too much or cannot even be found. So really need more categories because there's just no fair or favorable comparison of any Schon, or any equivalent brand cue, that can be made with these higher end custom cues. I know owners of those other cues will resent this but you cannot distort history or the current secondary cue market either.
A great, fabulous pool cue does not empower its owner to play better.....probably just try a lot harder.....and that can translate into playing better.
Personally, I'd rank Schon cues in the mid-range, until you get into the Schon's "Elite" cue series or the recent Tribute Cues Deanoc spearheaded. I would not otherwise place Schon in the high end range because if you did that, where do you rank other cue-makers like Scruggs, Mottey, Tascarella, Mobley, Richard Black, Joel Hercek, Black Boar, Ginacue, Searing, James White, Ed Prewitt, etc. These guys soar above the likes of any Schon cue ever made ? It's important to try and realistically clarify this early on but only the OP can do that since it's his thread. Otherwise future posts on this thread will lose sight of the genuine reality of pool cues.
Let's face the cold, hard facts of pool cues. There are cue-makers and there are good cue-makers and of course some horrible ones too, and then there's "great" cue-makers. The ones you lust to own one of their masterpieces and the cues just cost too much or cannot even be found. So really need more categories because there's just no fair or favorable comparison of any Schon, or any equivalent brand cue, that can be made with these higher end custom cues. I know owners of those other cues will resent this but you cannot distort history or the current secondary cue market either.
A great, fabulous pool cue does not empower its owner to play better.....probably just try a lot harder.....and that can translate into playing better.
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Schon Cues if you consider them a production cue company would be on the high end. To the best of my knowledge Schon only has 5 employees. I guess because they are successful and have a standard line that is CNC'd they get stuck in the production category. You can still order a custom Schon with sharp points and stitch rings but you are going to pay a premium like you would to any other high end custom cue builder. When I think production I think Viking, Mcdermott, Predator, and the like. Schon by default is stuck in this category because of their success. When you buy a Schon you know it will play similar to your buddies you tried out and liked. Evan makes a high quality consistent cue. For me if I can call the company and talk to the guy who built the cue that makes it custom. I can't call China and talk to the guy who made my Predator shaft.
I think that it shouldn't be what my price range would be that determines what's high end or low end? For example everyone would generally deem a ferrari to be high end regardless of how much my budget for a car is right? Just my opinion!
If you can buy a Schon below market value, you should give one a try and make your own decision.
You can pay a heck of a lot more expensive cue, but, there isn't that much difference in playability.
Look around and buy a decent old R series cue and you will be surprised at what you got for the money.
You can pay a heck of a lot more expensive cue, but, there isn't that much difference in playability.
Look around and buy a decent old R series cue and you will be surprised at what you got for the money.
zilemot.....I know this isn't universally true but it applies more often than not and is mostly true.
A car is not just a car.....a gun is not just a gun....a watch is not just a watch ........and a pool cue is not just a pool cue.
How are these things distinguished? By the quality/construction of the item.
You really can't compare a Ferrarri with a Ford....Remember that only 11 Ferrarris get produced a day......how many Fords?
Can you compare an Omega Co-Axial watch or a Rolex Perpetual Oyster watch with a Timex or Citizens?
Can you compare a custom Danny Turnbull gun, or a custom Les Kimber model, with an out of the box Colt or S&W?
There are differences in pool cues and wait till you see the one being made for me right now. It's a guaranteed home run....
nope, make that a grand slam. The custom maker spends so much more time on the construction, arrangement, design and
engineering than production companies. Many more hours of labor go into the cue build and a great cue-maker can get it
dialed in so much tighter. i.e., accurately, on the cue specs and balance.
How many cue-makers make the customer ordered weight by just swapping weight bolts?
My cue-maker is producing a cue that weighs 18.5 ozs. Doesn't sound too hard, right?
But there are over 50 ivory inlays in my design with BEM forearm, 6 ebony points, ebony butt sleeve and ivory butt cap.
The shafts on my cue are 4.0 ozs minimum and the cue weight will be 18.5 ozs.
And my cue-maker guaranteed my cue will be within 1/10th of an ounce and it could be made with or without a weight bolt, at my election.
Neither Schon or Joss, nor any other production cue firm is going to deliver anything like that and could never match the quality either.
There's too much time and effort involved selecting the right woods, painstaking detailed workmanship and a very extended cue-making process.
The entire build of the cue takes so much longer and there's so much more hands on involvement with the finished product.
If you truly believe that these higher end cues are not better and superior to any production cue, then you need a better education on pool cues.
I know that sounds harsh but it's the truth. If I have to explain why a Rolex watch is so much better than a Timex, even though both keep time,
then I'm afraid it's a lost cause. Indeed, a Ferrari admittedly costs a lot of money but that's why it's considered the finest sports car in the world.
Quality does make a difference and that's just the facts of life that applies to pool cues as well. Again, a high end cue does not make you
into a better pool player but it sure does make you want to try harder and be a better pool player.
Who wants to go to the pool hall with a $6k Joel Hercek cue and not even be able to run a single rack of 10 ball......DUH?
p.s. There is nothing wrong with a production cue, or Schon Cues.......Take a closer look at my signature; I am proud to have one in my small cue collection.
A car is not just a car.....a gun is not just a gun....a watch is not just a watch ........and a pool cue is not just a pool cue.
How are these things distinguished? By the quality/construction of the item.
You really can't compare a Ferrarri with a Ford....Remember that only 11 Ferrarris get produced a day......how many Fords?
Can you compare an Omega Co-Axial watch or a Rolex Perpetual Oyster watch with a Timex or Citizens?
Can you compare a custom Danny Turnbull gun, or a custom Les Kimber model, with an out of the box Colt or S&W?
There are differences in pool cues and wait till you see the one being made for me right now. It's a guaranteed home run....
nope, make that a grand slam. The custom maker spends so much more time on the construction, arrangement, design and
engineering than production companies. Many more hours of labor go into the cue build and a great cue-maker can get it
dialed in so much tighter. i.e., accurately, on the cue specs and balance.
How many cue-makers make the customer ordered weight by just swapping weight bolts?
My cue-maker is producing a cue that weighs 18.5 ozs. Doesn't sound too hard, right?
But there are over 50 ivory inlays in my design with BEM forearm, 6 ebony points, ebony butt sleeve and ivory butt cap.
The shafts on my cue are 4.0 ozs minimum and the cue weight will be 18.5 ozs.
And my cue-maker guaranteed my cue will be within 1/10th of an ounce and it could be made with or without a weight bolt, at my election.
Neither Schon or Joss, nor any other production cue firm is going to deliver anything like that and could never match the quality either.
There's too much time and effort involved selecting the right woods, painstaking detailed workmanship and a very extended cue-making process.
The entire build of the cue takes so much longer and there's so much more hands on involvement with the finished product.
If you truly believe that these higher end cues are not better and superior to any production cue, then you need a better education on pool cues.
I know that sounds harsh but it's the truth. If I have to explain why a Rolex watch is so much better than a Timex, even though both keep time,
then I'm afraid it's a lost cause. Indeed, a Ferrari admittedly costs a lot of money but that's why it's considered the finest sports car in the world.
Quality does make a difference and that's just the facts of life that applies to pool cues as well. Again, a high end cue does not make you
into a better pool player but it sure does make you want to try harder and be a better pool player.
Who wants to go to the pool hall with a $6k Joel Hercek cue and not even be able to run a single rack of 10 ball......DUH?
p.s. There is nothing wrong with a production cue, or Schon Cues.......Take a closer look at my signature; I am proud to have one in my small cue collection.
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I think rather than me pontificating as I've been accused of doing, you should look to other posters. All I was attempting to do is draw a distinction in higher end cues with lesser priced, production cues. I don't think the cue in my hands makes me a better player. My cues inspire me to try harder and be a better player but the game is still essentially played between the ears first,
Just my opinion. What is the difference between a custom and production cue? A custom cue may be one of a kind. A certain custom cue may have limited copies of the same cue. That cue may have been entirely made by one person. That gives them more value. However to make comparisons like cars and watches isn't fair. Lets replace high end with high dollar. Another reason most custom cues are higher in price is because they are made in America. Higher cost of living. Another reason custom cues cost so much is because they don't have the equipment or man power to mass produce cues. Just because someone opens a larger factory with the most advanced equipment doesn't mean they put out less quality. In fact the opposite might happen. If the company is successful they may put more money towards testing and making a better cue. How many custom makers make changes in their cues to make them play better? Most are about the art and design. Sure they may play good but they may play the same as they did 20 years ago. While others are advancing with technology. I guess you can compare Rolex and Timex as an example. The Rolex looks shinny and tells great time but is expensive. However my Timex isn't as shinny but it tells time, has an alarm, stop watch, heart rate monitor, calendar etc. and it's much cheaper.
Burk....I'll leave it at this.....you still have a lot to learn about pool cues. Production cue companies don't age their wood for 8, 10, 12, 15 years. When that cue gets made, the amount of attention it gets with human hands and eyes is scant in comparison, Let's debate this again in 10 years after you've hopefully acquired more knowledge about pool cues.
Here's just a simple start and it's barely scratching the surface about the difference in pool cues. Just view in entirety Ernie Guiterrez's You Tube Video about Ginacue's cue-making. Then come back and honestly report that any production cue is made with as much attention, wood care and selection, and any production cue is as good.
And watches are a great example, as are guns too. I used Ferrari because of the OP reference in a post. There's more to cue-making than using a CNC program to make cuts or slapping in a 1.5 ounce weight bolt so you can sell the customer the desired weight and with the next customer's order for the very same cue substitute a 3/4 ounce bolt so this customer's lighter weight cue order can be satisfied. It's obvious you still have a great deal you still need learn about the complexity of cue-making. Especially with the selection of wood for the cue shafts which production cue firms are much less concerned about.
Ever wonder why a shaft weighing 3.5 ozs sometimes gets used instead of one weighing 4.0 ozs. If the cue-maker has to deliver a cue at 18.75 ozs and misses the target weight and even the lightest aluminum bolt renders the cue too heavy, just substitute a different shaft 1/2 oz lighter or whatever might be needed and Voila...target cue weight achieved. And don't think a shaft that weights 3.5 ozs plays like the same size shaft that weighs 4.0 ozs or heavier. There's a big difference in wood quality with top notch custom cue-makers.
Here's just a simple start and it's barely scratching the surface about the difference in pool cues. Just view in entirety Ernie Guiterrez's You Tube Video about Ginacue's cue-making. Then come back and honestly report that any production cue is made with as much attention, wood care and selection, and any production cue is as good.
And watches are a great example, as are guns too. I used Ferrari because of the OP reference in a post. There's more to cue-making than using a CNC program to make cuts or slapping in a 1.5 ounce weight bolt so you can sell the customer the desired weight and with the next customer's order for the very same cue substitute a 3/4 ounce bolt so this customer's lighter weight cue order can be satisfied. It's obvious you still have a great deal you still need learn about the complexity of cue-making. Especially with the selection of wood for the cue shafts which production cue firms are much less concerned about.
Ever wonder why a shaft weighing 3.5 ozs sometimes gets used instead of one weighing 4.0 ozs. If the cue-maker has to deliver a cue at 18.75 ozs and misses the target weight and even the lightest aluminum bolt renders the cue too heavy, just substitute a different shaft 1/2 oz lighter or whatever might be needed and Voila...target cue weight achieved. And don't think a shaft that weights 3.5 ozs plays like the same size shaft that weighs 4.0 ozs or heavier. There's a big difference in wood quality with top notch custom cue-makers.
Do you need to age wood for 10 to 20 years with today's technology. LD shafts are cut in pie shapes and put back together. I don't know how old the wood is. I do think technology somehow puts everything back together and they aren't falling apart. Let's be fair. Not all custom cues are all that as far as design goes. They are all subjective to playability just like production. They made their name and that means something. I get that. Let's says two shops have the exact same materials to make the same exact cue. One custom and one production. So I should pay more because the custom shop doesn't have the same technology of the production shop. That's silly. It would be basically the same cue in the end.
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I would say that Schon has built up an easily recongnizible name from beginner to the experienced player. The avg player in the pool hall will think of the Schons as an upper end cue. Here on the AZB forums its considered..upper mid level production cue. Id say that the majority agree that schon make a quality,great hitting cue for the money. Retail prices are fairly high..but having so many out there make them, a bargan in the secondary market. Its hard to get over 1000.00 for any schon on the secondary market..but from 400-700 range..IMO they are hard to beat. The previous poster comparison to a BMW is a good analogy. They are every where...get you there in style and perform great.
Yes....wood needs to be aged......talk to a wood craftsman...today's technologies do not accelerate the process with the same results.
"When wood is used as a construction material, whether as a structural support in a building or in woodworking objects, it will absorb or desorb moisture until it is in equilibrium with its surroundings. Equilibration (usually drying) causes unequal shrinkage in the wood, and can cause damage to the wood if equilibration occurs too rapidly. The equilibration must be controlled to prevent damage to the wood. If dried too quickly, wood shrinks much at the surface, compressing its damp interior."
"Wood drying may be described as the art of ensuring that gross dimensional changes through shrinkage are confined to the drying process. Ideally, wood is dried to that equilibrium moisture content as will later (in service) be attained by the wood. Thus, further dimensional change will be kept to a minimum.
It is probably impossible to completely eliminate dimensional change in wood, but elimination of change in size may be approximated by chemical modification. For example, wood can be treated with chemicals to replace the hydroxyl groups with other hydrophobic functional groups of modifying agents (Stamm, 1964). "
"Among all the existing processes, wood modification with acetic anhydride has been noted for the high anti-shrink or anti-swell efficiency (ASE) attainable without damage to wood. However, acetylation of wood has been slow to be commercialized due to the cost, corrosion and the entrapment of the acetic acid in wood. There is an extensive volume of literature relating to the chemical modification of wood (Rowell, 1983, 1991; Kumar, 1994; Haque, 1997)."
"Drying timber is one method of adding value to sawn products from the primary wood processing industries. According to the Australian Forest and Wood Products Research and Development Corporation..........green sawn hardwood, which is sold at about $350 per cubic metre or less increases in value to $2,000 per cubic metre or more with drying and processing."So yes, properly aged and stored wood used for pool cues is definitely stronger, more desirable and is very expensive which is why production cues aren't made with the same wood that custom cue-makers use.........it's too costly to outright purchase wood already aged for7-8-10 years and longer and there's too many issues associated with environmental control and storage of wood inventories for pool cues/shafts etc. to do that on their own.
I am not saying that production cues are manufactured using inferior wood and to infer anything like that would be complete misinterpretation by the reader. What I am saying is that the wood used by higher end custom cue-makers is superior quality wood. Very simply put, that means it's more expensive wood no matter how you slice it but wood factor is not the sole difference as there's so many other considerations as well.
"When wood is used as a construction material, whether as a structural support in a building or in woodworking objects, it will absorb or desorb moisture until it is in equilibrium with its surroundings. Equilibration (usually drying) causes unequal shrinkage in the wood, and can cause damage to the wood if equilibration occurs too rapidly. The equilibration must be controlled to prevent damage to the wood. If dried too quickly, wood shrinks much at the surface, compressing its damp interior."
"Wood drying may be described as the art of ensuring that gross dimensional changes through shrinkage are confined to the drying process. Ideally, wood is dried to that equilibrium moisture content as will later (in service) be attained by the wood. Thus, further dimensional change will be kept to a minimum.
It is probably impossible to completely eliminate dimensional change in wood, but elimination of change in size may be approximated by chemical modification. For example, wood can be treated with chemicals to replace the hydroxyl groups with other hydrophobic functional groups of modifying agents (Stamm, 1964). "
"Among all the existing processes, wood modification with acetic anhydride has been noted for the high anti-shrink or anti-swell efficiency (ASE) attainable without damage to wood. However, acetylation of wood has been slow to be commercialized due to the cost, corrosion and the entrapment of the acetic acid in wood. There is an extensive volume of literature relating to the chemical modification of wood (Rowell, 1983, 1991; Kumar, 1994; Haque, 1997)."
"Drying timber is one method of adding value to sawn products from the primary wood processing industries. According to the Australian Forest and Wood Products Research and Development Corporation..........green sawn hardwood, which is sold at about $350 per cubic metre or less increases in value to $2,000 per cubic metre or more with drying and processing."So yes, properly aged and stored wood used for pool cues is definitely stronger, more desirable and is very expensive which is why production cues aren't made with the same wood that custom cue-makers use.........it's too costly to outright purchase wood already aged for7-8-10 years and longer and there's too many issues associated with environmental control and storage of wood inventories for pool cues/shafts etc. to do that on their own.
I am not saying that production cues are manufactured using inferior wood and to infer anything like that would be complete misinterpretation by the reader. What I am saying is that the wood used by higher end custom cue-makers is superior quality wood. Very simply put, that means it's more expensive wood no matter how you slice it but wood factor is not the sole difference as there's so many other considerations as well.
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Mass produced but marketed well.They will make a cue and call it
a 1 of 7 then make another cue with almost he same design and change a inlay
color and make that cue a 1 of 12 or a limited or a whatever.
To me a Schon, Joss,Pechauer feel and hit about the same depending on the
shaft you play with.Designs will vary of course.
a 1 of 7 then make another cue with almost he same design and change a inlay
color and make that cue a 1 of 12 or a limited or a whatever.
To me a Schon, Joss,Pechauer feel and hit about the same depending on the
shaft you play with.Designs will vary of course.
Surely you meant to say Les Baer.
That's the name, plus nothing custom about Kimber except 'some' Kimber customs.
And even then only minimally so.
It is a good question, however, with that said I do not think you will find an answer other than personal opinions. With that said in my opinion your question can only be based on the current purchase price of an item.
If your question is based on quality that is a entirely different question.
Based upon price of currently sold production cues, I think that Schon would qualify as a mid to high end production cue.
This could be debated until we're all blue in the face. You said "let's say two shops have the exact same materials to make the same exact cue." That won't happen. As for "custom" cue makers who you might think do not make any strides towards creating a better product over the years, I would give you a few names. Dennis Searing, Joel Hercek, Barry Szamboti. All top tier cuemakers who make better cues today than 10 years ago, I'm sure. But...I noticed you live in Baltimore. Go talk to Mike Lambros, he's in your area and makes one of the BEST playing cues on planet earth. He'll explain better than I, why a custom cue plays better than a production cue. Not to say there aren't production cues that play good, because there are, for sure. There has been comparisons made of cars, watches, guns, etc. A Ferrari and a Ford Focus will both get you from point A to point B, but it sure is a lot better getting there in a Ferrari, in my opinion. No disrespect to Ford Motor Company...