Schuler Cue Out of Business??

[manwon]

it would have prolonged a war which was in a stalemate. furthermore, a lot of the damage was done well before the war even started...nanking for example happened in 1937, as well as most of the other territories that were lost happened before 1939. by the time 1940 came around, chinese resistance led to a stalemate with neither side gaining any ground. altho the NRA did defeat the IJA twice in 1939 but then lost a major offensive in early 1940. this led to skirmishes as neither side could gain ground. so while there is no doubt that america was a great help in DEFEATING the japanese imperial army, there was not much happening to suggest that it single-handedly saved china from destruction. certain parts of china were in a poor state but china as a whole was far from the brink of disaster. so to take all of the credit for saving china is wrong...china was not close to being destroyed. all of the damage had already been done. and in a stalemate, china would win as the japanese were already having supply problems and had great difficulty controlling the regions they had gained (evidenced by the fact that they installed local puppet rulers instead of their own administrators) so even if they went on the offensive, they could not maintain control of any additional regions. another thing to consider, russia contributed more to china than any other nation. obviously, it was to prevent a 2 fronted war but they still provided massive amounts of assistance. britain, australia, netherlands all helped as well and you do those countries wrong by claiming all the credit for the united states.

also, where would the economy be if china hadnt bought up a bunch of bonds and currency when the recession started and the dollar was dropping in value?


on topic -> i have not heard about this and i have talked to a bca instructor who uses schuler cues so he would know if they actually went out of business.

Closer to telling the rest of World to go screw yourself, we are not going to pay our debts, and that is right where we need to be. Because the problems caused by this decision will certainly kick start the rebuilding of our manufacturing infrastructure, this is the only way to rebuild what has been torn down. This is also the way to replace the lost job's, do you think for a moment in a crisis like I am describing that the same Governmental regulations that caused many of these problems will still be a factor? This is certainly not the road that I would choose if there was another choice. I also understand the effect it will have on the entire World, and America, but those who make it through will be stronger for it and thus this country will be stronger. Our system has some major flaws, along with the Global economy, if the above occurrs the World Economic systems will have to change, because the way they are doesn't work.

Oh and by the way, do you think Canada will be safe and not effected by such actions. They will be faced with the same problems that America will have, it kinda sucks to be located on all sides by America or water don't it.

 

[Danktrees]

Closer to telling the rest of World to go screw yourself, we are not going to pay our debts, and that is right where we need to be. Because the problems caused by this decision will certainly kick start the rebuilding of our manufacturing infrastructure, this is the only way to rebuild what has been torn down. This is also the way to replace the lost job's, do you think for a moment in a crisis like I am describing that the same Governmental regulations that caused many of these problems will still be a factor? This is certainly not the road that I would choose if there was another choice. I also understand the effect it will have on the entire World, and America, but those who make it through will be stronger for it and thus this country will be stronger. Our system has some major flaws, along with the Global economy, if the above occurrs the World Economic systems will have to change, because the way they are doesn't work.

this might be a decent theory but whether it will work or not remains to be determined. u will have 1 shot at it if it does happen tho. also, it seems like this recession has slowly been building up since the war started. it might not be the cause but it seems like too much of a coincidence. and considering how much money sustaining a war costs, i have reasons to believe this could be one cause of the recession. so before tearing everything apart, maybe ending the war first would be a wiser option as firing an air barrel at the rest of the world as that is simply unwise. and even if u make it out of it, the infamy and enemies u gain might not be worth it. america is a great nation but im not so sure that its better than the combined power of the other major nations. to think that u can fire an air barrel and default on loans without repercussions is flawed.

also, since when has defaulting on loans been a honourable thing to do. if someone fired an air barrel at u for 500 dollars u would be pissed and complaining about it to everyone. but here u r suggesting that america should do the same on loans worth millions/billions of dollars in order to get itself out of a hole that it caused? that places the responsibility of your own screw-ups on other nations which is just plain wrong. i dont believe it can happen anyway, u over simplify things by telling the world to go screw themselves and think everything will be alright. america is a great nation, but it doesnt own the world so doing that would be impossible. no respectable nation ould just sit there and take it. if a world war could be started by someone being shot in the head, and a war can be started to look for 1 person, u can believe that something like this wont just be accepted when major nations are being screwed over. and yea u guys have a great army but war is the last thing u would want when u're attempting to rebuild.

Oh and by the way, do you think Canada will be safe and not effected by such actions. They will be faced with the same problems that America will have, it kinda sucks to be located on all sides by America or water don't it.

it will depend on the stance that canada takes on american actions. obviously it will affect us but how it affects us might not be the same as what u think it will be. we're not defaulting on our loans, at least i hope not, so we will not be affected in the same way. but i could care less since this isnt going to happen anyways.

 

[gunzby]

The only thing I would like about defaulting on the ridiculous amount of loans the U.S. has is that no one would want to loan to us again which means for once we would have to live within our budget. Of course I could also see the government just printing the hell out of money causing rampant inflation.

The problem with the amount of loans can be followed from our politicians all the way down to the voters. The voters are demanding more and more from government every year and politicians want votes. One way to get em is to waste more and more money giving voters more stuff. I of course can't leave lobbyists out of the equation considering that they are the politicians lifeblood. Congressmen/women spend an average of 2/3 of their terms either trying to get re-elected or helping one of their cronies getting elected or re-elected and it's all done through lobbyists and fundraisers which of course involves the lobby.

On a side note I am sorry for being part of this thread becoming a political thread instead of about Shuler Cues.

 

[manwon]

this might be a decent theory but whether it will work or not remains to be determined. u will have 1 shot at it if it does happen tho. also, it seems like this recession has slowly been building up since the war started. it might not be the cause but it seems like too much of a coincidence. and considering how much money sustaining a war costs, i have reasons to believe this could be one cause of the recession. so before tearing everything apart, maybe ending the war first would be a wiser option as firing an air barrel at the rest of the world as that is simply unwise. and even if u make it out of it, the infamy and enemies u gain might not be worth it. america is a great nation but im not so sure that its better than the combined power of the other major nations. to think that u can fire an air barrel and default on loans without repercussions is flawed.

also, since when has defaulting on loans been a honourable thing to do. if someone fired an air barrel at u for 500 dollars u would be pissed and complaining about it to everyone. but here u r suggesting that america should do the same on loans worth millions/billions of dollars in order to get itself out of a hole that it caused? that places the responsibility of your own screw-ups on other nations which is just plain wrong. i dont believe it can happen anyway, u over simplify things by telling the world to go screw themselves and think everything will be alright. america is a great nation, but it doesnt own the world so doing that would be impossible. no respectable nation ould just sit there and take it. if a world war could be started by someone being shot in the head, and a war can be started to look for 1 person, u can believe that something like this wont just be accepted when major nations are being screwed over. and yea u guys have a great army but war is the last thing u would want when u're attempting to rebuild.



it will depend on the stance that canada takes on american actions. obviously it will affect us but how it affects us might not be the same as what u think it will be. we're not defaulting on our loans, at least i hope not, so we will not be affected in the same way. but i could care less since this isnt going to happen anyways.

if a world war could be started by someone being shot in the head, and a war can be started to look for 1 person, u can believe that something like this wont just be accepted when major nations are being screwed over. and yea u guys have a great army but war is the last thing u would want when u're attempting to rebuild.

The difference between then and now are Nuclear weapons. In the old days a single Nation could not cause Global devastation by simple pushing buttons. Today, the consequences of a World war are slim to none, because I think the World in General realizes that no one win such a War. But, if a Nation is pushed into a corner and threatened with occupation I do not want to think what could happen. Now I do not advocate this in any way shape or form, but with a deterrent like the United States has One of the Largest Nuclear Arsenals on the Planet. I do not know if the rest of the World can do much in response to an American Default, do to the possible results of a war even in default I doubt invasion of America would be a concern.

However, I do think that we would certainly make some enemies and the hard feelings would last for a long long time, which could push the entire World closer to the brink of total annihilation.

I also would like to appologise to everyone for my part in derailing this thread, especially the OP this will be my last post!!! :embarrassed2:

Take Care

 

[Rich93]

On a side note I am sorry for being part of this thread becoming a political thread instead of about Schuler Cues.

Thanks for saying so. It doesn't appear to be an outsourcing issue. I found a cached page on google that lists the equipment they auctioned. It looks like they sold everything, including desks and the phone system. Really too bad.

 

[JB Cases]

I'd be willing to bet LARGE that the American cue makers would not trade their foreign sales for zero imports.

You have no clue how wrong you are.

I am really sick of this bash China crap and it's NOT because I make stuff in China. It's because the people here are people just like everyone else and if we don't want World War 3 then we need to learn to LIVE in harmony with them instead of constantly denigrating them.

It is not a matter of denigrating "them" it is a matter of money. My Dough does not go overseas.

Really?

Get some on record to say that they will give up all their previous sales to the Japanese, the Taiwanese, the Europeans, etc....

I can guarantee you that there would be a lot less "high end" cue makers were it not for those foreign buyers.

I am sure that the US production houses would be a lot happier for no imports. Who wouldn't like reduced competition?

You have typed your message on a computer where some of the "dough" you bought it with went overseas.

Your dough goes around the world whether you think it does or not. The people you buy from purchase foreign made goods for their private life and for their businesses. The companies you deal with are multi-national and spend "your" money in whatever country they want to.

All this protectionist crap is just pure fantasy. First you wrap yourself in the flag and say "buy American" then what? What happens when the next state over gives a tax break to the car factory and they pull up stakes and move leaving thousands without a job in the first state?

Where do you personally draw the line? Do you check out every cue maker you buy from to see if they are paying their help fairly? If they are paying their taxes? Whether they beat their kids or not? Do you support the cue makers in your city and state before others in other states?

Do you purchase your fruit and milk and meat from local farmers or do you shop at the big box grocery store and support the mega-growers who employ people under sweatshop conditions?

It's so easy to hold up a flag and say "buy American" but I think you have no idea what that really means. It was the influx of foreign dollars into the high end cue industry that built it. Without the foreign buyers gobbling up high end cues in the 90s there wouldn't be 500 cue makers in the USA today in my opinion.

I think that you have no clue where your dough goes. Nor do you know where your dough came from. The closest you are going to get to that knowledge is www.wheresgeorge.com

(and you're right Adam, this is all just opinion and conjecture from a guy who only knows cases, I am certainly not an economist) I am however someone who has been in business for myself on many levels on three continents. So if Palin can be an expert on foreign relations because she can see Russia from Alaska then I guess I can venture my opinion on global economics due to my experience doing business globally)

 

[gunzby]

Thanks for saying so. It doesn't appear to be an outsourcing issue. I found a cached page on google that lists the equipment they auctioned. It looks like they sold everything, including desks and the phone system. Really too bad.

Wonder if it was a family business that they just couldn't keep anymore or what. I can't imagine not wanting to keep something like that going exactly the way my father ran it, but that is strictly my opinion and I certainly don't know their circumstances.

 

[JB Cases]

Thanks for saying so. It doesn't appear to be an outsourcing issue. I found a cached page on google that lists the equipment they auctioned. It looks like they sold everything, including desks and the phone system. Really too bad.

That really sucks!

I really liked Ray and was very sad when he died. He was a true force of nature in my opinion and a pioneer in cue making as well.

I once had the "batman" cue that was featured in the lineup from the first Blue Book's color photographs. This cue was on consignment and I took it up and down the east coast to tournaments for about three months. The price on it was $5000 and while it didn't sell it constantly got major attention and compliments.

Bummer that they appear to be out of business. :-(

 

[JB Cases]

I don't see why? Ray Schuler never struck me as a "wrap yourself in the flag" kind of guy. But then again I only met him a few times.

By your own admission your not qualified to judge.

Hence the disclaimer.

I don't know why it's ok to make comments like this.

It's that FREEDOM of SPEECH thing...

That doesn't make it ok, just permissible.


Seems to me that that the largest collector of cues in the world is Chinese. (Taiwanese)

What % was made where we have FREEDOM of SPEECH?

Largest collector of high end cues. Meaning that money flows RIGHT BACK into America in the form of purchases of high end cues. I assume that a large percentage of the cues owned by this collector were made in the USA.


I'd be willing to bet LARGE that the American cue makers would not trade their foreign sales for zero imports.

Relevance??

Because when someone wants to start down the road of isolation then they should consider that this will harm those who depend on sales to foreign buyers. The question then becomes who do you sacrifice?

We live on a ball and all have to share.

You know cases

And? I also know what the effects of buying and selling and manufacturing are on an international scale because of my experience with doing that in the case business. I am acutely aware of the economics involved.

A friend of mine makes JAM UP cues that look and play as good as anything made anywhere else on Earth.

Is he in FLA? Does he specialize in custom fitting his cues? Did i state that you know cases?

He is a Taiwanese living in China.

He just recently bought a boatload of wood and supplies from Atlas and various other suppliers in the USA.

Boatload as a "lot"?

I think he told me it was around $20,000 in supplies.

Musta been a small boat, eh?

It was a small boat, but not to him. And the order was a decent amount of money going FROM China to the USA for supplies from the USA. (well some of the supplies were from Africa and South America and Canada)

I am really sick of this bash China crap and it's NOT because I make stuff in China. It's because the people here are people just like everyone else and if we don't want World War 3 then we need to learn to LIVE in harmony with them instead of constantly denigrating them.

You know cases.

That I do but I also am allowed to take advantage of that "freedom of speech" thing and state my opinion on the matter, be it unqualified or not.

Don't you realize that America was once Europe's sweatshop?

And DA CUBS were once WORLD CHAMPEEEENS.

Relevance?

And let's not even start in on the whole slavery based economy.

Why are you bringing it up?

Because as the saying goes, "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Schuler may be out of business, they may be restructuring, and they MIGHT be having cues made elsewhere.

That's solid.

But it's THEIR business and their responsibility to uphold the quality level that Ray created. If they don't do THAT then would say that's disrespectful to Ray, not just by making cues elsewhere.

You DO know cases (circumlocution is, with modern medicine, controllable:yeah: )

Please provide which example of my statements fit the definition of circumlocution as defined by Wikipedia? I can't really agree that you have correctly used the term here. And also may I ask what is your qualification to make a statement that a form of speech is controllable by modern medicine? Are you a doctor? And if so could you please point to the relevant study that shows how a person talks is controllable by drugs?

 

[JimS]

Welcome to the global marketplace. I understand some of the anger towards outsourcing as most people see this only as American jobs going to another country. Keep in mind that in some cases it makes sense because they do the majority of their business with that country or the countries surrounding it which keeps costs down. Operating cost cutting is what is in the interest of the survival of that company.

Those companies who have moved overseas to take advantage of cheap labor have been finding out that as fuel costs rise that savings is negated. More and more companies have moved back because the shipping costs have hurt them more than labor costs have saved them as well as the fact that it is easier to keep an eye on a company in your own country than half a world away. A big point to make on that issue is that cheap labor does not last forever.

The only time I have a major issue with outsourcing is when it is done to skirt environmental laws and when employees have no recourse against working in unsafe conditions.

Great post. Seems to me that business means BUSINESS. Making money is the name of the game. If it can be done in the jungle of the Amazon then that's where the business will go.

Cheap labor means that the people of some other country are going to gradually catch up with our standard of living. Someday, probably not in our life-time, it will all become more or less equal and we'll have world order. We are moving towards that goal, that equality, and it hurts as shifts happen. Jobs move from Chicago to the subarbs, then to the south or the west..., then to Mexico, then China, then Indonesia.... anywhere on the globe.. on the planet.. on the ball we live on.. anywhere that can get the job done. That's how it works. JB is on the cutting edge.

Don't worry.

It will work out. Change is scary and sometimes painful. But it will work out.

It will because that's how it works.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

Am I DOOMED ?

Because as the saying goes, "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."


If that means that I may have to re-marry one of my ex-wives........I may just go jump off my balcony.

Doug
(or eat a box of salt and drink BEER)

 

[phishman]

I thought this was a pool site not a political forum. If i wanted that I could have turned on the television. But I read it so?????

 

[mikepage]

I don't see why? Ray Schuler never struck me as a "wrap yourself in the flag" kind of guy. But then again I only met him a few times.

I don't know why it's ok to make comments like this. Seems to me that that the largest collector of cues in the world is Chinese. (Taiwanese)[...]

John - I know you're sensitive to this issue, but I for one didn't take the original comment the way you did. I spent the better part of a day one time in Ray's shop. We talked about a lot of things. We also argued a lot about a bunch of things, including squirt and what causes it and the role of his many shaft tapers and so forth. I'm confident I made some headway at the end of the day. Ray was a thoughtful, knowledgeable guy who....how shall I say this... had a few opinions.

One time in the day I asked if he'd put his wonderful joint on a predator 314 blank for me. You'd a thought I was asking for a sacrifice of his first-born child. He acted like he was a world-famous chef presenting a filet to me and I was asking for a bottle of ketchup. He railed on about it for a while, the cigar stub never leaving his mouth. [Ivan Lee gave me a don't worry I'll take care of it wink during this ;-)].

So I could see Ray having a BIG reaction to the outsourcing to China idea, but I could see him having the same big reaction to an outsourcing to Wisconsin idea.

 

[RFisher]

Hey,

If anyone has links, or other info to the stuff Schular is selling please post, or pm me, I'm interested. Not trying to kick the guy when he's down, just might get some good equipment.

 

[JE54]

They've definetly closed the shop.
I've been going there since I bought my first cue from Ray at his shop in Wheeling, Illinois. They had just moved to Cyrstal Lake, Illinois last summer from Palatine, Illinois.
I was told by the current owner that Schuler cues will still be made and sold.
I bid and got items from the auction.
Went the following morning to pick up my things from the auction people.
I'll let the people on here decide whether or not their cues were well built or not.
I've got 5 Schuler's including my 1 of 1 in my avatar and one thing for sure is that because of the Schuler joint they hit a ton. And you never have to worry about the joint coming loose.
I know it's because of the hit that I keep going back to my Schuler. And I've got or had some other nice cues (BCM, Bender, South West, Capone)
So for any of the people looking for a good solid hitting cue, keep them in mind.
I wish them & all the cuemakers the best of luck in these hard times.

 

[Rich93]

They've definetly closed the shop.
I've been going there since I bought my first cue from Ray at his shop in Wheeling, Illinois. They had just moved to Cyrstal Lake, Illinois last summer from Palatine, Illinois.
I was told by the current owner that Schuler cues will still be made and sold.
I bid and got items from the auction.
Went the following morning to pick up my things from the auction people.
I'll let the people on here decide whether or not their cues were well built or not.
I've got 5 Schuler's including my 1 of 1 in my avatar and one thing for sure is that because of the Schuler joint they hit a ton. And you never have to worry about the joint coming loose.
I know it's because of the hit that I keep going back to my Schuler. And I've got or had some other nice cues (BCM, Bender, South West, Capone)
So for any of the people looking for a good solid hitting cue, keep them in mind.
I wish them & all the cuemakers the best of luck in these hard times.

Finally one who knows something - thank you. I'm glad to hear that they will still be made. Since they've sold all their equipment, I guess that means an existing cue company will manufacture them for Schuler to their specs.

 

[Rich93]

Hey,

If anyone has links, or other info to the stuff Schular is selling please post, or pm me, I'm interested. Not trying to kick the guy when he's down, just might get some good equipment.

The auction was January 14. Not sure what if anything might be left - you could call them. Here is a cached google link to what was sold:
LINK.

 

[Rich93]

John - I know you're sensitive to this issue, but I for one didn't take the original comment the way you did. I spent the better part of a day one time in Ray's shop. We talked about a lot of things. We also argued a lot about a bunch of things, including squirt and what causes it and the role of his many shaft tapers and so forth. I'm confident I made some headway at the end of the day. Ray was a thoughtful, knowledgeable guy who....how shall I say this... had a few opinions.

Based on my conversations with him, I think Ray thought that squirt was caused by weak-spined, perfectly cylindrical pro tapers. But he wasn't all wrong. The tapers he preferred to sell were the conical (or somewhat conical) tapers used by billiard players, which Ray was himself. These tapers do have lower squirt, but mainly because they start skinny and have a small lightweight ferrule. He also thought these tapers were more consistent when using sidespin.

When I bought my first cue from him in 1982, he recommended his European taper, which he designed for Ceulemans. It's not a conical taper - the growth in the first few inches is less than conical. It has a 12mm tip. The standard pool cue at the time was 13mm with an inch long ivory or ivory-like ferrule, i.e., more end mass. I got used to the European taper and am very happy with it.

LD shafts have followed these principles in their later models as they've stretched for the last ounce of squirt reduction. The Predator Z shaft has an 11.75mm tip and a teeny lightweight ferrule; the OB-2 is also 11.75mm. What Ray didn't discover is the hole in the shaft. But even if he had thought of it, I doubt that he would have sold it.

 

[JB Cases]

John - I know you're sensitive to this issue, but I for one didn't take the original comment the way you did. I spent the better part of a day one time in Ray's shop. We talked about a lot of things. We also argued a lot about a bunch of things, including squirt and what causes it and the role of his many shaft tapers and so forth. I'm confident I made some headway at the end of the day. Ray was a thoughtful, knowledgeable guy who....how shall I say this... had a few opinions.

One time in the day I asked if he'd put his wonderful joint on a predator 314 blank for me. You'd a thought I was asking for a sacrifice of his first-born child. He acted like he was a world-famous chef presenting a filet to me and I was asking for a bottle of ketchup. He railed on about it for a while, the cigar stub never leaving his mouth. [Ivan Lee gave me a don't worry I'll take care of it wink during this ;-)].

So I could see Ray having a BIG reaction to the outsourcing to China idea, but I could see him having the same big reaction to an outsourcing to Wisconsin idea.

The cigar stub! He was a character that's for sure. That's why I left the door open Mike, for folks like you who knew him better to chime in.

I'd hazard a guess though that at the end of the day he'd prefer that his method of building cues get in more player's hands and if moving production to a cheaper/higher volume place gets that done then maybe that is the best way to honor him.

 

[AuntyDan]

I have to say that several years ago (before Mr. Schuler passed away) I had heard great things about his cues and wanted to buy one. I found a local retailed here in CA who had a few cues in stock and when I went to look at them I was very disappointed with the build quality, especially around the joint. I didn't end up buying one. I bought a Dale Perry on Ebay instead, which just goes to show how much I know!

I don't believe buying goods made in the USA is an automatic guarantee of good quality, or vice-versa. The arguments for a US citizen to take a protectionist attitude against imported goods is totally separate from the issue of the quality of the goods IMHO.