scoop shot or miscue

N

nine o nine

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We all know that a scoop is illegal and a foul, usually a ball in hand. Where though does a scoop not become a simple miscue. For instance...I'm aiming a shot using low outside and miscue/scoop. What even might complicate this more is if the called ball goes in the called pocket. Another scenario might be a miscue on a jump shoot that appears to become a scoop but a legal object ball was hit to a rail.
In both cases it might be really hard to tell if there was a foul since a secondary touch with the ferrule could not be determined.
Thoughts????? Mitch
 
Well, supposing the miscued cueball actually jumped a ball before it made a legal ball would probably be a tell.
 
nine o nine said:
We all know that a scoop is illegal and a foul, usually a ball in hand. Where though does a scoop not become a simple miscue. For instance...I'm aiming a shot using low outside and miscue/scoop. What even might complicate this more is if the called ball goes in the called pocket. Another scenario might be a miscue on a jump shoot that appears to become a scoop but a legal object ball was hit to a rail.
In both cases it might be really hard to tell if there was a foul since a secondary touch with the ferrule could not be determined.
Thoughts????? Mitch
Click to expand...

I go by intent. You can tell when someone is trying to jump over a ball because the object ball is behind another ball.

The ferrule hit, I have never seen it called a foul on a miscue even in events on TV with a ref at the table. While you can pretty much tell it happened due to the sound and action of the ball, the idea is that the result of the miscue is often bad enough that calling the ferrule or shaft contact foul would be moot.
 
buckets said:
iirc most rules stipulate that a miscue is only a foul if it is intentional
Click to expand...

The miscue part is not a foul, however there is a rule that the ferrule or side of the cue cannot hit the cueball. On miscues that is exactly what can happens, which is the foul part. Of course then there is also the fact of not hitting a rail on a shot, or missing the legal object ball which is also in itself a foul. But just a miscue is not a foul, it is what happens as a result of it that is, namely the ferrule/shaft contact, no rail hit or illegal ball hit.

As I said before, I have never seen a miscue where the ferrule or shaft hit the ball be labeled a foul just for that fact, no rail or not hitting a legal ball yes, but not the illegal contact of the shaft. Even though that is technically a foul.
 
Black-Balled said:
Dr dave proved all miscues are fouls, iirc.
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That's not quite correct. What I proved is that the vast majority of miscues involve secondary contact with the tip, ferrule, and/or shaft. However, a miscue is not a foul unless the secondary contact is obvious or if the miscue is intentional. For those interested, video demonstrations of all of these cases can be found on the miscue resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave
 
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dr_dave said:
That's not quite correct. What I proved is that the vast majority of miscues involve secondary contact with the tip, ferrule, and/or shaft. However, a miscue is not a foul unless the secondary contact is obvious or if the miscue is intentional. For those interested, video demonstrations of all of these cases can be found on the miscue resource page.
Click to expand...
... so most miscues do involve "secondary contact," but most cannot be called as actual fouls.

Another type of shot that falls into this category is an elevated-cue shot, as demonstrated in: NV H.1 - Elevated-Cue Pool and Billiards Shots ... Are They Legal?

Enjoy,
Dave
 
nine o nine said:
We all know that a scoop is illegal and a foul, usually a ball in hand. Where though does a scoop not become a simple miscue. For instance...I'm aiming a shot using low outside and miscue/scoop. What even might complicate this more is if the called ball goes in the called pocket. Another scenario might be a miscue on a jump shoot that appears to become a scoop but a legal object ball was hit to a rail.
In both cases it might be really hard to tell if there was a foul since a secondary touch with the ferrule could not be determined.
Thoughts????? Mitch
Click to expand...
FYI, this topic is covered fairly well (with demonstrations) on the illegal "scoop" jump-shot resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave
 
hang-the-9 said:
I go by intent. You can tell when someone is trying to jump over a ball because the object ball is behind another ball.

The ferrule hit, I have never seen it called a foul on a miscue even in events on TV with a ref at the table. While you can pretty much tell it happened due to the sound and action of the ball, the idea is that the result of the miscue is often bad enough that calling the ferrule or shaft contact foul would be moot.
Click to expand...

I'll piggyback on this comment and say last ESPN tournament of Champions, Allison Fisher was attempting a draw shot on the six in a corner pocket, the cue ball popped up from being scooped, hopped over the six but made contact and started the 6-ball slowly rolling forward. The errant cue ball went off the cushion and the 6 rolled right into the pocket. National tv, ref, audience, she put her hand up and continued to play.

I might still have this match on my dvr, I'll see if I can grab a clip and post it here. It's a great trick shot if done intentionally
 
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