scoring defensive shots in apa

Banks said:
It's people like you that have caused my 8b defensive percentage to skyrocket to .8 !!! :p



Of course, once you've had a "7" night, everybody and their mother whines and cries about how you're such a sandbagger. Nobody complains when you play like a 3, though!



Unless he's a good 7, a 9 or it determines a hill/hill win/loss(hail mary shot), that's going down as a D all day long. 5 rails.. dude's lucky to get a hit. If he's below a 7/9 and says he wasn't at least trying to prevent BiH, start asking him what he wants to put on that shot to try it again.
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Yo' Banks the Guy is an 8 Ball 7, 9 Ball 9. He called it, then marked it!!! I put the CB deep in the Jaws, 8 Ball was 1/2 Ball above the corner pocket on the same long rail, the opposing side pocket 1 rail shot was blocked. He went diagonally to the far corner long rail to the short rail, back up table by the originating pocket long rail, short rail at head of table, long rail to 8 ball corner pocket. BIH would have given me the game, don't know about the match but hey what do you do. Had he missed I wouldn't have marked that as a defense because he shot the shot to make it.

Black Cat :cool:
 
CreeDo said:
OK, the rule is cut and dried... and for exactly one person in the room, deciding whether or not to mark a safety is a no-brainer.

Unfortunately, that one person, the shooter, is not the guy keeping score.
So the scorekeepers are forced to resort to a subjective intepretation of what they see.
If you ever saw a safety, and the shooter didn't announce it, but you marked it anyway, you made a subjective interpretation.

Do you feel 'interpretation' doesn't happen, or shouldn't happen? Because right here on the APA website, they openly admit it does.

So whatever word you want to use ("subjective", "opinion", "judgment") the scorekeeper does have to make a guess about what he just saw.
He makes his best guess as to the shooter's intent, and marks accordingly.
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I agree with you completely here. The score keeper must make some subjective decisions based on a clear and objective rule.

CreeDo said:
KM, we have an honest disagreement.
There's no need to say I'm "cheating", that word makes me sound like a shitty human being who's trying to twist the rules to my advantage. I'm not. I'd mark the shot the same way whether it's my teammate or my opponent shooting. So it may help or hurt my team.

Since you consider intent king, it certainly is not my INTENT to gain an unfair advantage, or to ruin the handicapping system, or to unfairly 'ding' someone with a safety they didn't deserve.

We've been doing well in this thread keeping it civil, so please don't wreck that by calling me a cheater. It's rude and there's no reason for it.
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CreeDo, it appears you have misunderstood (and also misquoted) what I said. I did not call you a cheater. I said if you are marking a defensive shot for reasons other than the APA guidelines (as you previously described that you did), then you are *cheating*. There is a significant difference here. For some reason, you decided to interpret this as me calling you a cheater. Not the same. Your *actions* constitute cheating whether you like that or not. Now I hold the belief that it is entirely possible to cheat *without intending to*. People make mistakes all the time. Some people are misinformed, some people just mess up, etc. My guess is that there is far more unintentional cheating in the APA than there is intentional. I'm sure you might choose to define "cheating" as involving some willful or intentional component. To me if you violate the rules you are cheating, although your *intention* may not be malicious. I believe you when you say you don't mean to cheat. I have no reason not to. However, I disagree with you that my comment was rude and unnecessary. I was simply making an observation based on the facts in front of me. I would think if you are the honest guy you say you are (and I am not disputing that AT ALL), you might welcome some further clarification about my characterization of your *actions*. Hopefully I have provided that. I apologize for not wording my post in such a way to avoid the misunderstanding that you experienced. I don't think you are a cheater. I think your actions constituted cheating. I think if now that this has been pointed out to you, and you continue to consistently mark your version of defensive shots, then you might be on your way to being labelled a cheater. I doubt this is the case though.

So quick summary: I think your actions constituted cheating, albeit unintentionally. This statement doesn't make you sound like *any* kind of person. I figured you or anyone else looking at this thread, particularly the OP, might benefit from recognizing this type of erroneous implementation of the rules. I often say things matter-of-fact...I did not mean any offense at all, and certainly didn't attempt to make anything less than civil. I have read many of your posts and generally like what you have to say. I was glad we could talk about this!


KMRUNOUT
 
Black Cat 5791 said:
Yo' Banks the Guy is an 8 Ball 7, 9 Ball 9. He called it, then marked it!!! I put the CB deep in the Jaws, 8 Ball was 1/2 Ball above the corner pocket on the same long rail, the opposing side pocket 1 rail shot was blocked. He went diagonally to the far corner long rail to the short rail, back up table by the originating pocket long rail, short rail at head of table, long rail to 8 ball corner pocket. BIH would have given me the game, don't know about the match but hey what do you do. Had he missed I wouldn't have marked that as a defense because he shot the shot to make it.

Black Cat :cool:
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Black Cat,

I believe you are correct in this example. Thing is, it really makes no difference what the guys skill level is. There are people that are 4's and 5's in my area who for whatever reason are obsessed with multi-rail kicks and banks. This one guy, a 4/5, always shows me this 7 rail kick he was working on. I tell him he should practice things that come up more frequently in a game, like say, um..., a stop shot. But there may come the day that he faces that crazy kick shot, goes for it, and misses. If someone marked it down as a defensive shot, they would be wrong.

KMRUNOUT
 
FWIW, I set up the scenario as described by lorider in post #1 this evening (Wednesday) and asked my LO what he would have marked on the scoresheet. He said it was NOT a defensive shot as the kicked ball was an attempt at a shot.

As many of us thought, along with lorider.

Still, these shots will always be viewed differently from different scorekeepers.

We have settled nothing.

Maniac
 
Maniac said:
May I be so bold as to open yet another can-of-worms since we're discussing defensive shots in this thread???

I'm playing 8-ball. My opponent has one ball left and the 8-ball is hanging in the side pocket. I still have three balls on the table. It's his shot and he doesn't have a makeable shot on his last ball so he plays a safety that leaves the cue ball behind his only ball while my three balls are on the other end of the table. I have to kick at and hit one of my balls or this game will soon be over. I kick two rails and hit one of my balls. I had no "intention" of making a ball, I was just trying to not give him BIH.

Do you mark this as a defensive shot???

I do NOT when I am scorekeeping and I see a person shoot a kick shot like the one I just described. Sure there was no "intent" on making a ball but rest assured, this is as offensive as a shot can be whenever you're trying not to give up BIH in an obvious game-losing situation. I would not even think of taking an inning off of ones match (as it would do for all practical intents and purposes) for trying to save a chance at winning this game by not giving up a BIH.

I bet I'm in the minority here and a lot of you would mark this as a defensive shot.

This above described scenario falls into the "gray area" of the rules, imo.

Maniac
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yes under apa rules that is a defensive shot and should be marked as such. Any shot where there is no intent to pocket a ball is defensive. In this case it is defense against giving up a ball in hand. I would also assume that in this case you chose a kick route to leave the cue ball in as undesireable position as possible for your opponent.
 
Scorekeeping requires a certain amount of knowledge of the game which is often not present in a low sl player. Here is an example that happened in my last match at a singles regional that may shed some light. My opponent in 9 ball shoots a safe and leaves the 8 ball about 1 diamond up from the corner pocket and about 1/2 diamond out from the long rail and the cue ball on the opposite side of the table very near the corner pocket with the ball half way between the cue ball and the 8 ball. I have 2 choices i can 1 rail kick for a hit or 3 rail kick for the win. I choose the 3 rail kick for the win. In this scenario i chose what i thought gave me best chance to win which i did as i made the kick shot for position on the 9, but had i not made the 8 some of you would argue that was a defense. Players that know me know that i am pretty accurate on 2 and 3 rail kicks and made the decision to go agressive as opposed to attempting a one rail kick safe. A low skilled player may not. The key here is realizing that the 8 ball was lying on the 3 rail kick path.
 
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Maniac said:
As someone else posted, I too call all my safties, usually before I shoot them
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Me too. Question is...how do you go about calling safe?

I usually say it twice in a muttering sort of way like Mike Sigel does.

Freddie <~~~ SAFE safe
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, it's essentially a 2 way shot. Are 2 way shots marked as safeties in APA?

pj
chgo
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That's part of the discussion in this thread. The APA doesn't specifically address "two-way shots".

Did the shooter attempt to make a ball? If not, that is a defensive shot. Plenty of gray.

Add to that, the vast difference in players abilities, and scorekeepers awareness, and we end up with the varying opinions on how to interpret (or execute) the rule.

Let me echo the others who've said it's been a good discussion.
 
quadrary said:
yes under apa rules that is a defensive shot and should be marked as such. Any shot where there is no intent to pocket a ball is defensive. In this case it is defense against giving up a ball in hand. I would also assume that in this case you chose a kick route to leave the cue ball in as undesireable position as possible for your opponent.
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Okay, let's play the "what if" game. What if on my kick-shot I would have shot hard enough to have moved the object ball I was kicking at two (or more) rails hoping I might get lucky and slop the ball in somewhere. You still gonna mark that a defensive shot? Now, if I roll the cue ball slow off the rail and barely send the object ball (or cue ball) to a nearby rail I obviously am not trying to pocket a ball. THIS would definitely be marked a defensive shot. Also while speaking to my LO last night, we discussed this scenario too. He said the first kick would be considered a shot attempt because of the speed in which it was played, the second shot would be marked as defense.

I'm just the messenger here.

Maniac (where is the line drawn as to what is kicked at hard enough to ascertain the difference? = gray area)
 
The reality is that these "gray area" shots aren't occurring all that often, at least in my experience. One defensive shot, more or less, isn't likely to have a major impact on anyone's Skill Level calculations.

If we all mark the obvious ones, most of the time, the system should work well enough. Quibbling over one potential defensive shot is an interesting exercise here on AZB, but really isn't critical in the scheme of things on match night.

Just my humble opinion, of course. And this is from someone who feels that the bulk of the players in his area don't particularly game the system much. I fully realize that other areas of the country have entirely different circumstances.

Hopefully I'll get to Vegas and learn about it first hand. :p

(Both my 8-ball and 9-ball teams gained entry to the Vegas qualifier from the summer sessions, so we're just playing out the sessions, looking to at least get into the division playoffs and make a little money. I keep telling my players, all we gotta do is win 3 more matches in June and we're on our way...)

{And no, we're not doing anything in the manner of "handicap maintenance".... There is such a long time between now and June, anyone that should "go up" will, and we'll just have to deal with that if it happens.}
 
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Are 2 way shots marked as safeties in APA?

pj
chgo
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justadub:
The APA doesn't specifically address "two-way shots".

Did the shooter attempt to make a ball? If not, that is a defensive shot. Plenty of gray.
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A two-way shot by definition is an attempt to make a ball (and get "safe" shape for the next one).

Then I guess it comes down to whether the shooter would try the shot without the safety...? That's a very gray area.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
A two-way shot by definition is an attempt to make a ball (and get "safe" shape for the next one).

Then I guess it comes down to whether the shooter would try the shot without the safety...? That's a very gray area.

pj
chgo
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Could I define a two way shot as: "I'm playing safe, but if the ball happens to go in I'll take it?"
 
Here is another angle:

When accu-stats is scoring a match, and a player attempts a two-way shot and misses, is it scored as a miss?

I will not argue with Pat.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
A two-way shot by definition is an attempt to make a ball (and get "safe" shape for the next one).

Then I guess it comes down to whether the shooter would try the shot without the safety...? That's a very gray area.

pj
chgo
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Do you think that when the shooter took his shot, was he trying to make that ball? Everything else is beyond the scope. Intentionally, I would surmise.

Attempting to keep it simple, which of course isn't the end result.
 
Black Cat 5791 said:
If you had the opportunity to shoot that same ball in another pocket with an easier shot, or you had another higher probability shot that you could make and use for position on the next shot, and you for whatever reason decided to take a 2 out of 100 shot and missed, yep I'd make that as a defensive shot.

Reason being if your really trying to win and not run up innings no one would take that shot to begin with. I've been playing league 11 years straight with no breaks sometimes 2 - 3 nights per week. There's not much I haven't seen.
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Not much you haven't seen in 11 years? Apparently, you haven't seen a 'real' 8 ball match.

Last I checked, 8 ball was about who 'wins' the game by sinking the game ball, not who 'clears' the table for their opponent.

A Masters Division Rep should know better. This is not a defensive shot.
 
Could I define a two way shot as: "I'm playing safe, but if the ball happens to go in I'll take it?"
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APA defines all shots as "You can call 'safe' until you're blue in the face. If the ball goes in, you're gonna take it whether you want to or not."

ChrisBanks said:
Here is another angle:

When accu-stats is scoring a match, and a player attempts a two-way shot and misses, is it scored as a miss?

I will not argue with Pat.
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I didn't know my Video of the Month preference could be APA...
 
ChrisBanks said:
As I am looking to minimize my rating, wouldn't I prefer if I was never marked for a defensive shot?
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Why are you looking to minimize your rating? If you play to your ability, your rating will take care of itself. Anything else is cheating.
 
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