Scott Frost's opinion about Predator tables

[trob]

Tables might make less quarters per hour than Valleys, BUT the Diamonds also attract players that wouldn't go to the bar otherwise, and play longer, = increased bar sales, you MISS that part of a bar generating increased sales! I've replaced many, MANY Valley tables in the Spokane, WA area through Vending companies and bar table sales, no ones kicked out a Diamond yet and replaced it with a Valley

Good point .. you will attract better players but I just don’t think bars in this area give a shit about that. Tables around here are just something to keep people getting drunk occupied so they keep drinking lol

 

[realkingcobra]

Good point .. you will attract better players but I just don’t think bars in this area give a shit about that. Tables around here are just something to keep people getting drunk occupied so they keep drinking lol

Unless you work in the bar industry as I do, and have for 40+ years, you're not seeing the real bar seen, and are in fact generalizing it as they're all the same, not pool halls! Yet it's the pool halls that ate in trouble not the bar table industry, evidenced by the amount of pool halls replacing 9fts with 7fts in order to draw in the pool leagues, something that pool halls suffer from, because they don't have any real draw anymore, and no plans on how to solve the dying 9ft crouds.

 

[ShootingArts]

@realkingcobra From a couple of pages back... I wonder if a system of stretching and holding the cloth similar to to the screen printing method (the business I am in). Newman Roller frames are commonly used to stretch the mesh to specific tensions and keep it there. They are retensionable as well. Just a thought as I now zero about of tables are assembled.

I would think a manual version of this might be viable?

I think the basic idea has merit. A little looking at how many people bitch about table mechanics followed by a quick look around a moderate sized city quickly shows that unskilled mechanics are an issue. Those guys need all the help they can get!

I have thought about the idea long enough that I am obviously not going to do anything with it but I think a system with sliding weights and a cantilever system like how tennis racket strings are tensioned would be a viable option. Pull from three positions or even six all at once, lock things down and the playing surface is perfect and evenly tensioned. You can show that to curious customers too, unlike when you use an educated elbow to pull tension. Give yourself some leverage to work with and take two fingers with a small sliding weight to tension the cloth. No strain plus you can show customers that one table is consistently stretched everywhere and every table in the joint has the same tension after redoing all of them.

For all the bragging about Diamonds they are just as subject to bad mechanics as any other table. Some simple tools and fixtures could solve the mysteries of getting cloth right. Wouldn't take long to pay for themselves either.

Hu

 

[ChrisinNC]

Right. That’s why I never understood the obsession with tight pockets. If I owned a room, I’d want 5” bucket stock GC pockets on most of the tables. Then a small number of tight tables for the gamblers near the counter. With many of the modern professional tables now being super tight from the factory, it’s just too much except for the fanatics like us. Imo.

Edit: And while I love the look of the Predator top rail, and how the tight pocket facings flow perfectly into the rail/pocket parts (contrast that with the MR Rasoon tight table, that looks horrible with the cushion extended well inside of where it was designed to extend), that doesn't leave room for a design with bigger pockets for pool room owners to order for the banger customers that keep them in business.

Having a poolroom for 27 years, I’ve come full circle. We started with standard pockets on all our tables to eventually switching to tighter pockets on most of our tables and progressively even tighter pockets on a few of our tables, to now swinging back towards more forgiving pockets on all but maybe 1-2 of our tables.

The biggest factor for us is since we don’t have that many tables is our need to use all our 9 foot tables for our weekly handicapped 9-ball tournament in order to be able to get the tournament finished in a reasonable time frame. Having a few 4-1/4 inch corner pocket tables certainly has made that more difficult to do.

For our next scheduled table recovering and pocket alterations later this year, our 4-3/4” corner tables will maintain the same mouth measurement, but the pocket facing angles will be altered from 142° to 140°, making them play more forgiving.

Our two tables with 4-3/8 inch mouths will be changed from 142° pocket facing angles to 139° pocket facing angles, and our tightest 4-1/4 inch mouth table will have a pocket facing angle of 139° from the current 141°, making them all play more forgiving for all our players.

Fact is, the older I get, the more I need more forgiving pockets, and I think that holds true for most players.

 

[realkingcobra]

I think the basic idea has merit. A little looking at how many people bitch about table mechanics followed by a quick look around a moderate sized city quickly shows that unskilled mechanics are an issue. Those guys need all the help they can get!

I have thought about the idea long enough that I am obviously not going to do anything with it but I think a system with sliding weights and a cantilever system like how tennis racket strings are tensioned would be a viable option. Pull from three positions or even six all at once, lock things down and the playing surface is perfect and evenly tensioned. You can show that to curious customers too, unlike when you use an educated elbow to pull tension. Give yourself some leverage to work with and take two fingers with a small sliding weight to tension the cloth. No strain plus you can show customers that one table is consistently stretched everywhere and every table in the joint has the same tension after redoing all of them.

For all the bragging about Diamonds they are just as subject to bad mechanics as any other table. Some simple tools and fixtures could solve the mysteries of getting cloth right. Wouldn't take long to pay for themselves either.

Hu

Problem is, there's already a good system available, just not used by many. Any NEW system if it requires cost, or more time, forget it.

 

[ShootingArts]

Problem is, there's already a good system available, just not used by many. Any NEW system if it requires cost, or more time, forget it.

Time should be a wash, I don't know which would be quicker. On the other hand, cost should be more than offset by increased business and perhaps prices could be bumped a little since the user can promote themselves as using new precision equipment. If I was interested it would be in building the equipment, not using it regularly. Not interested in either one, I am really retired now.

Hu

 

[realkingcobra]

I

Time should be a wash, I don't know which would be quicker. On the other hand, cost should be more than offset by increased business and perhaps prices could be bumped a little since the user can promote themselves as using new precision equipment. If I was interested it would be in building the equipment, not using it regularly. Not interested in either one, I am really retired now.

Hu

I've been in this service industry for 40+ years and an say with 100% confidence, nothing will change the hack mentality as long as they can still make money and run!!

 

[YOLO]

I think the basic idea has merit. A little looking at how many people bitch about table mechanics followed by a quick look around a moderate sized city quickly shows that unskilled mechanics are an issue. Those guys need all the help they can get!

I have thought about the idea long enough that I am obviously not going to do anything with it but I think a system with sliding weights and a cantilever system like how tennis racket strings are tensioned would be a viable option. Pull from three positions or even six all at once, lock things down and the playing surface is perfect and evenly tensioned. You can show that to curious customers too, unlike when you use an educated elbow to pull tension. Give yourself some leverage to work with and take two fingers with a small sliding weight to tension the cloth. No strain plus you can show customers that one table is consistently stretched everywhere and every table in the joint has the same tension after redoing all of them.

For all the bragging about Diamonds they are just as subject to bad mechanics as any other table. Some simple tools and fixtures could solve the mysteries of getting cloth right. Wouldn't take long to pay for themselves either.

Hu

Thank you for your thoughts. My idea is quite simple but maybe the cost is to prohibitive to implement. A rod on all 4 sides. Loosen the jam nut, turn the rod to tension the cloth, tighten the jam nut. Again, I have zero knowledge on how this is done currently so maybe I am finding a solution for a problem that doesn't exist

 

[realkingcobra]

Thank you for your thoughts. My idea is quite simple but maybe the cost is to prohibitive to implement. A rod on all 4 sides. Loosen the jam nut, turn the rod to tension the cloth, tighten the jam nut. Again, I have zero knowledge on how this is done currently so maybe I am finding a solution for a problem that doesn't exist

What you're not accounting for is the slack needed in order to pull the cloth into the pockets and finish the pockets.

 

[YOLO]

What you're not accounting for is the slack needed in order to pull the cloth into the pockets and finish the pockets.

Actually, it is designed to leave slack in the corners.

 

[realkingcobra]

Actually, it is designed to leave slack in the corners.

And how about the side pockets, which are the hardest to finish off???

 

[maha]

a good table mechanic is all you need. if you hire a hack he will hack up the job no matter what equipement is designed to help him.

the first clue is if he is cheap.

 

[trob]

Unless you work in the bar industry as I do, and have for 40+ years, you're not seeing the real bar seen, and are in fact generalizing it as they're all the same, not pool halls! Yet it's the pool halls that ate in trouble not the bar table industry, evidenced by the amount of pool halls replacing 9fts with 7fts in order to draw in the pool leagues, something that pool halls suffer from, because they don't have any real draw anymore, and no plans on how to solve the dying 9ft crouds.

We haven’t had pool halls in my area in more than 20 years. Bars with 7ft tables are all we have unless you’re a member of a private club. I don’t know nationaly. I know my little town as my family is in the bar business and I know just about every bar owner in town. In this town pool tables For the most part are just something to keep people occupied and drinking maybe across the country it’s different but here the majority don’t care about pool. The one’s that got diamonds seem to be sorry they did. It didn’t increase business.

 

[trob]

Unless you work in the bar industry as I do, and have for 40+ years, you're not seeing the real bar seen, and are in fact generalizing it as they're all the same, not pool halls! Yet it's the pool halls that ate in trouble not the bar table industry, evidenced by the amount of pool halls replacing 9fts with 7fts in order to draw in the pool leagues, something that pool halls suffer from, because they don't have any real draw anymore, and no plans on how to solve the dying 9ft crouds.

Agreed. No one wants to play on 9 foot tables. It’s sad. The clubs that have them they sit empty. We have no place in york where the focus is great equipment. I have no idea how to change that. In york it seems if you don’t have a liquor License adults don’t come and with a license now costing over $400 grand And that won’t happen any time soon . Lol

 

[realkingcobra]

Actually, it is designed to leave slack in the corners.

And how about the side pockets, which are the hardest to finish off???

Agreed. No one wants to play on 9 foot tables. It’s sad. The clubs that have them they sit empty. We have no place in york where the focus is great equipment. I have no idea how to change that. In york it seems if you don’t have a liquor License adults don’t come and with a license now costing over $400 grand And that won’t happen any time soon . Lol

Not trying to talk down to you buddy, but I have bar table experience from coast to coast, I've worked in 49 states, Hawaii excluded. I've seen the transition of pool tables in pool rooms becoming less and less 9fts, yet the increase in bar tables.

 

[trob]

And how about the side pockets, which are the hardest to finish off???

Not trying to talk down to you buddy, but I have bar table experience from coast to coast, I've worked in 49 states, Hawaii excluded. I've seen the transition of pool tables in pool rooms becoming less and less 9fts, yet the increase in bar tables.

oh i know you do.. it might be like that in the rest of the country where bar owners give a damn about the game. Here in little york pa. They just don’t seem to. They are just there to make revenue. I 100% agree about 9 footers!! Pool rooms near here in Harrisburg or towards philly have at least gotten rid of half their 9 foot tables for 7 foot diamonds. Those tournaments attract more players. No doubt about it man

 

[realkingcobra]

Actually, it is designed to leave slack in the corners.

See, here's the thing in my opinion. If you want to try and come up with some kind of system to make my job easier, I think you should FIRST be able to do this kind of work on my level. Then, if you can simplify that work, I'm all ears, otherwise if you can't do my level of work, what makes you believe you can simplify my work?

 

[iusedtoberich]

oh i know you do.. it might be like that in the rest of the country where bar owners give a damn about the game. Here in little york pa. They just don’t seem to. They are just there to make revenue. I 100% agree about 9 footers!! Pool rooms near here in Harrisburg or towards philly have at least gotten rid of half their 9 foot tables for 7 foot diamonds. Those tournaments attract more players. No doubt about it man

The pool rooms in/near Philly have about all systematically closed up in the past 20 years. Hardly any left

 

[iusedtoberich]

See, here's the thing in my opinion. If you want to try and come up with some kind of system to make my job easier, I think you should FIRST be able to do this kind of work on my level. Then, if you can simplify that work, I'm all ears, otherwise if you can't do my level of work, what makes you believe you can simplify my work?

Often times new ideas come from outside the main experience. This can be true of any product under the sun. Don't be so hard on the guy

As far as hacks doing a "money grab and run", for fun.... if there was a tool that allowed them to do their hit and run faster, they'd probably be interested to make more money.

A legit professional in any industry first knows just about everything that can go wrong and how to correct while performing their craft, and second has all the tools and knowledge to do their work quickly, so they can maximize their earnings.

 

[Brookeland Bill]

Scott offers to explicitly describe/enumerate the problems over the phone which indicates to me that he sensibly intuits the elementary fact that Predator has far deeper pockets than he does should Predator initiate a lawsuit for what their attorneys will contend are actionably libelous (slander/defamation disseminated in-print ) statements.

Arnaldo ~ Scott's legal fees defending himself (and defend he must) will bankrupt him much faster than the corporate chump change legal fees Predator would disburse over a few months of legal warfare. Lose-lose situation for Scott which could place him in debt for all of his remaining years. . . . no matter how valid his opinions may happen to be. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Truth is an absolute defense.