Patrick,
I know it's a pain but can you draw a "detailed" diagram illustrating the last sentence in your post without too much trouble and post it in this thread? If it's a pain, don't bother.
Thanks,
Secrets!
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
Patrick,
I know it's a pain but can you draw a "detailed" diagram illustrating the last sentence in your post without too much trouble and post it in this thread? If it's a pain, don't bother.
Thanks,
There's a lot of truth to this. I mean, take a frozen combo. The new kid cannot understand why, with the balls pointing *right at the pocket* it dan't go when he hits the second ball a wee bit to one side.
We get illuminated as we go, though some will always remain dim bulbs
Lou Figueroa
one of those things that don't matter on the pool table
Thing is, it doesn't really matter why it goes with spin on a pool table. I think of spin increasing bite if it is inside spin and decreasing bite if it is outside spin. Doesn't matter if that is right or wrong, that is the effect it has on my shots. Somebody said there is less grip on dirty balls. I find the opposite to be true. Perhaps because dirty balls are also very "wet" down here, or possibly because the people that clean their pool balls add a little wax or polish. Doesn't really matter, in my world dirty balls bite more and dirty cheap junk barbox balls bite most of all.
One of the smartest men I knew was also one of the least educated. I often suspected he was wrong about why things worked but when he told you something worked you could get out a hammer and chisel and carve it in a rock!
Hu
Thing is, it doesn't really matter why it goes with spin on a pool table. I think of spin increasing bite if it is inside spin and decreasing bite if it is outside spin. Doesn't matter if that is right or wrong, that is the effect it has on my shots. Somebody said there is less grip on dirty balls. I find the opposite to be true. Perhaps because dirty balls are also very "wet" down here, or possibly because the people that clean their pool balls add a little wax or polish. Doesn't really matter, in my world dirty balls bite more and dirty cheap junk barbox balls bite most of all.
One of the smartest men I knew was also one of the least educated. I often suspected he was wrong about why things worked but when he told you something worked you could get out a hammer and chisel and carve it in a rock!
Hu
You don't think so? Tell Dallas West he's wrong. He first showed it to me years ago and I've used it countless times since. You just don't know the shot. It can be greater than 90 degrees and it will pick up speed from the throwing spin.
Best,
Mike
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson
Don't think so... the cut is too thin for any throw in the direction of the pocket. The direction of spin-induced throw is perpendicular to the line between the centers of the CB/OB at contact (i.e., the direction in which the CB's surface rubs across the OB's surface).
pj
chgo
You don't think so? Tell Dallas West he's wrong. He first showed it to me years ago and I've used it countless times since. You just don't know the shot. It can be greater than 90 degrees and it will pick up speed from the throwing spin.
Best,
Mike
I might be mistaken, but I think you are both correct. The shot probably comes in at a slight curve to the object ball due to squirt and the extreme side spin, this makes it hit the ball from a different {fuller} angle than straight across the edge. Which woupld probably not throw nearly as much.
Don't think so... the cut is too thin for any throw in the direction of the pocket. The direction of spin-induced throw is perpendicular to the line between the centers of the CB/OB at contact (i.e., the direction in which the CB's surface rubs across the OB's surface).
pj
chgo
You don't think so? Tell Dallas West he's wrong. He first showed it to me years ago and I've used it countless times since. You just don't know the shot. It can be greater than 90 degrees and it will pick up speed from the throwing spin.
Best,
Mike
I might be mistaken, but I think you are both correct. The shot probably comes in at a slight curve to the object ball due to squirt and the extreme side spin, this makes it hit the ball from a different {fuller} angle than straight across the edge. Which woupld probably not throw nearly as much.
OK - you're wrong, Dallas.
How 'bout that? I wasn't struck by lightning.
Don't think so. To add momentum toward the pocket, there must be a new or increased force directed along the line toward the pocket. Can you explain where this comes from, given that the spin on the CB moves perpendicular to this line where it contacts the OB?
pj
chgo
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Golden secrets!
This thread is filled with some of the finest SECRETS of pool known to the pool world.
A couple of other additions that I have seen by watching countless hours of play by top players. Pardon me if some of you have already mentioned them but these are some of the important common denominators that are part of most top players:
VERY STILL PRESENCE after bridging and addressing the cue ball. Very little movement except for the lower portion of the arm and positively no head movement. There are exceptions to this but the more common denominator is no movement except for the forearm and wrist/hand. The slightest head movement can result in hitting the cue ball offline. This SECRET demands repeating; KEEP THE BODY VERY STILL DURING THE EXECUTION PROCESS, unless you want to develop the "rising Phoenix" style of Keith McCready. There aren't too many like him around, so if you choose to go that route, you may want to take lessons from him.
A NOT-TIGHT grip is critical for most shots and should be part of your pre-shot-routine.
But here are the GOLDEN SECRETS:
Take what you learn here and elsewhere, accept the fact that these things work for some people and often times, most people and that they might work for you now or maybe not immediately and maybe not in the near future, but without a doubt, these SECRETS help people play better pool. And if you are so inclined to REALLY want to improve your game, go to the table by yourself, practice these SECRETS consciously and diligently until they are part of your game without any conscious effort. and make each of these SECRETS your personal strengths.
Most will look at the thread, read through for the reading enjoyment alone, not separate and record the secrets for posterity and hope that they will remember them when they play their next match and pray that they will be able to execute the SECRETS as shared in this thread.
A few, a minuscule few, will separate the wheat from the chaff, record it to paper, bring it to the pool table and practice like burning hell until they hold the SECRETS as their own.
Thanks again for everyone's contributions, even those who have a difference of opinion.
This thread is filled with some of the finest SECRETS of pool known to the pool world.
A couple of other additions that I have seen by watching countless hours of play by top players. Pardon me if some of you have already mentioned them but these are some of the important common denominators that are part of most top players:
VERY STILL PRESENCE after bridging and addressing the cue ball. Very little movement except for the lower portion of the arm and positively no head movement. There are exceptions to this but the more common denominator is no movement except for the forearm and wrist/hand. The slightest head movement can result in hitting the cue ball offline. This SECRET demands repeating; KEEP THE BODY VERY STILL DURING THE EXECUTION PROCESS, unless you want to develop the "rising Phoenix" style of Keith McCready. There aren't too many like him around, so if you choose to go that route, you may want to take lessons from him.
A NOT-TIGHT grip is critical for most shots and should be part of your pre-shot-routine.
But here are the GOLDEN SECRETS:
Take what you learn here and elsewhere, accept the fact that these things work for some people and often times, most people and that they might work for you now or maybe not immediately and maybe not in the near future, but without a doubt, these SECRETS help people play better pool. And if you are so inclined to REALLY want to improve your game, go to the table by yourself, practice these SECRETS consciously and diligently until they are part of your game without any conscious effort. and make each of these SECRETS your personal strengths.
Most will look at the thread, read through for the reading enjoyment alone, not separate and record the secrets for posterity and hope that they will remember them when they play their next match and pray that they will be able to execute the SECRETS as shared in this thread.
A few, a minuscule few, will separate the wheat from the chaff, record it to paper, bring it to the pool table and practice like burning hell until they hold the SECRETS as their own.
Thanks again for everyone's contributions, even those who have a difference of opinion.
Why always matters - a lot. If you don't know why something works on a particular shot, then you've just learned that shot. But if you also learn why it works, then you've learned a principle that you can apply in other situations too.
pj
chgo
Outside spin curves the CB in the other direction, so it hits the OB from a thinner angle.
pj
chgo
There is where you are wrong. I know that it works on that shot, I know that it works on similar shots.
I know more about the computer we are typing on and the networks we are communicating across than 99% of the people using computers to access the internet. I know that every time a key is pushed down that the signal is broken down at least three levels and then transported using almost a dozen levels on each end and using various packet frames and types. I can discuss how these things work until the typical user is glassy eyed from information overload. I also have a great deal of practical knowledge concerning these things. The guy or gal that can click a button and use one or two fingers to peck on a keyboard can get the same information from this forum I can.
The moral of my little tale is that the "why" of many things can be black boxed. It doesn't matter why I get the results I get using low left as long as I know that I will get those results any time I use low left. In my early days of competition I got my head handed to me by many an old gentleman that wasn't a fraction as smart as I was. Took me awhile to acknowledge that a lot of my smarts were gilding the lily, pretty but not really necessary. In fact these people with "working smarts" stripped down and without a lot of window dressing were often more knowledgeable in the areas that mattered about what we were doing than degreed engineers. I wanted to tell them how wrong some of their ideas were but I figured I needed to quit sucking hind teat before they would listen.
If a university wanted to give a two year course on the theory of pool taught on computer and wall boards that would be nice information to have. If an old man that has been rolling the balls around fifty or sixty years wants to spend a few hours with me on a pool table I may learn more of practical value than I learned in the two year course.
Hu
I have shot these type of shots as most of us have and I don't know if the object ball picks up speed from the throwing spin or not.
I have to wonder if Patrick is right about this though and if the thought that the object ball picks up speed from the throwing spin comes from the effective speed. I'm sure I'm not saying this perfectly well but I can imagine that there is less friction with a spinning cue ball at this angle than a rolling cue ball or a sliding cue ball and that the spinning action allows the cue ball to separate from the object ball more easily than does the increased friction contact of a sliding cue ball or rolling cue ball and thereby gives an impression of "increased speed" being imparted to the object ball.
I notice this same perceived" effect on the following shot:
The object ball gets hit with that "flicking/ticking" sound and barely hits the obect ball but the object ball still takes off like a rocket toward the other pocket after bouncing into the side rail.
If it is not the throwing spin that adds speed to the object ball, then what is it that makes it appear so?
Of course, but there's no contest between the two, and neither should be dismissed. They complement each other.
pj
chgo
PJ,
Theory is fun but very often those without a clue concerning theory manage to do just fine. I strongly suspect that Efren doesn't understand a tenth of the theory concerning how pool balls interact that you and I do. Seems like with ten times the knowledge we should be able to beat him doesn't it?
While there have been educated pool players that didn't seem to be handicapped by their education there are many more top pool players who have little formal education. While we can agree that theory and practical knowledge complement each other there is not one thing that can be done on a pool table with an understanding of theory that can't be done with only practical knowledge. Considering that both theory and practical knowledge require considerable expenditure of time to learn we best benefit from acquiring practical knowledge. When we have time to kill and no pool table we can discuss theory endlessly on the internet. :grin:
Hu
I 'FEEL' that making this bank is a combination of the spin 'redirecting'
the object ball and transferring a small bit of englsh.The 'redirecting'
allows you to hit the ball 'thicker'..which gives you more object ball
speed.
I'm with Hu on these shots...you can use a lot of stuff BEFORE you
understand it.
..in my prime I hit this shot as good as anybody..on a 9 ft pool table
or a 10 ft snooker table.
but I have sympathy for PJ's point of view also....
..the man who can DO it and EXPLAIN it will rule the pool world.
BUT..if you wait till you can explain it, it may take a long time
Sir John Eccles (Nobel Laureate in neurophysiology) was asked which was more important, theory or application and he answered something like this. Theory with out application is of little use to anyone except as a mind game. Application without theory is of little use except in particular circumstances. Both are necessary for the advancement of knowledge and they are of equal importance. Eccles was a consummate theorist but never strayed far from the usefulness of his ideas.
Sir John was a smart guy!
Joe,
No question Sir John was a smart guy. No question that all things that happen on a field of green cloth are a pretty particular set of circumstances too. Depending on how far outwards we want to apply knowledge learned on a pool table, we have to understand more or less theory. Easy to transfer the knowledge to how wooden balls will interact on a lawn with little theory, if we want to use the knowledge of how pool balls interact to try to define how huge masses in space interact then we need to understand theory a bit better.
However, this is getting well away from the purpose of this thread so I'm going to reveal a simple secret in my next post. How much application each person gets from it will depend on the person. There is some basic theory involved too.
Hu
Joe,
No question Sir John was a smart guy. No question that all things that happen on a field of green cloth are a pretty particular set of circumstances too. Depending on how far outwards we want to apply knowledge learned on a pool table, we have to understand more or less theory. Easy to transfer the knowledge to how wooden balls will interact on a lawn with little theory, if we want to use the knowledge of how pool balls interact to try to define how huge masses in space interact then we need to understand theory a bit better.
However, this is getting well away from the purpose of this thread so I'm going to reveal a simple secret in my next post. How much application each person gets from it will depend on the person. There is some basic theory involved too.
Hu
back to secrets
Time to get back to secrets. When we are working tight around a pocket and object balls and need to travel the cue ball a minimum distance off of the rail we use inside english. Without understanding the more scientific reasons we know as pool knowledge that inside english kills speed off a rail.
Now we are shooting off the rail and out into the open. We have about an eighth ball hit and need to travel the cue ball a minimum distance. Inside, no side, or outside? Most know that we are using inside again and probably jacking up to hit down on the cue ball to maximize bite to spin the cue ball while minimizing forward motion. Now the secret that explains why we can shoot softer with inside. The answer is surface speed of the cue ball contact area. Both surface speed and forward speed come into play in this shot, any cut shot. With inside english surface speed adds to the forward speed because the leading edge of the cue ball contacts the object ball. With outside english the surface speed subtracts from forward speed since the edge of the cue ball that contacts the object ball is now the trailing edge in terms of spin.
This is the secret behind what most already know, when finessing a ball into the pocket we have to shoot a little harder with outside spin than with inside. Some other adjustments also of course but this bit of rambling only deals with speed. When shooting as slowly as possible to pocket a ball consider surface speed of the cue ball contact area and quit hanging balls on the lip.
Hu
Time to get back to secrets. When we are working tight around a pocket and object balls and need to travel the cue ball a minimum distance off of the rail we use inside english. Without understanding the more scientific reasons we know as pool knowledge that inside english kills speed off a rail.
Now we are shooting off the rail and out into the open. We have about an eighth ball hit and need to travel the cue ball a minimum distance. Inside, no side, or outside? Most know that we are using inside again and probably jacking up to hit down on the cue ball to maximize bite to spin the cue ball while minimizing forward motion. Now the secret that explains why we can shoot softer with inside. The answer is surface speed of the cue ball contact area. Both surface speed and forward speed come into play in this shot, any cut shot. With inside english surface speed adds to the forward speed because the leading edge of the cue ball contacts the object ball. With outside english the surface speed subtracts from forward speed since the edge of the cue ball that contacts the object ball is now the trailing edge in terms of spin.
This is the secret behind what most already know, when finessing a ball into the pocket we have to shoot a little harder with outside spin than with inside. Some other adjustments also of course but this bit of rambling only deals with speed. When shooting as slowly as possible to pocket a ball consider surface speed of the cue ball contact area and quit hanging balls on the lip.
Hu
What happens with a gear when it's turned 90 degrees? I spoke with a Camel Tour pro last night about this shot. He added that in addition, a spinning cue ball can almost be completely still and the spin will move an object ball with the throwing action. This is used to hold the cue ball and send the object ball a greater distance than the force from the collision generates.
Best,
Mike
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I agree with this in principle, but on such a thin hit there's virtually no spin-throw and therefor no change in where you can hit the OB.
pj
chgo