Secrets!

Here is another shot showing the spin transferring speed to the object ball. The first shot is with the three ball lagged up to the left corner with the cue ball about an inch off the rail. Without jacking up, no side spin the cue ball travelled four rails and back up the table.

CueTable Help



The second shot is lagging the one ball to the corner pocket using right spin. This turns into running english and doesn't kill on the first rail. The spin increases the distance the cue ball travels as it contacts the rails. And as another poster noted, it was shot with a softer stroke. Amazingly the one ball travelled the same distance as the three ball with a softer stroke.

CueTable Help



The cue ball travel distance was much less despite the running english which added to the cue ball movement.

Best,
Mike
 
dr_dave said:
Joey,

Your thread inspired me to create a webpage for the Top 100 Pool "Secrets" and "Gems". It is located here:

The subtitle for the page is:
"The things all great players know and wish they had known when they were younger."​
Check it out.

The site could have many more categories and hundreds of additional topics, but I limited the list to what I thought were the top 100 topics in 15 categories.

I've also provided links for most of the topics, providing additional resources (e.g., video demonstrations) and more information (e.g., illustrated instructional articles) for each.

Thanks for the inspiration and the thread! :thumbup:

Regards,
Dave
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Please send all of my royalties to my paypal account. :D I'll check the website out another day when I have more time as I am in a hurry to get to the pool room for some more partners one pocket.

You'd better be careful about calling those "gems", "SECRETS" because Patrick could get real mad at you. Lol.
 
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Jal said:
...As a practical matter, I think you're more right than wrong about this, but it is possible to get large amounts of throw, even on very thin cuts, with the right amount of outside english. The problem with this is that the difference in spin that produces maximum throw in one direction along the tangent line, compared to the opposite direction along the tangent line, gets smaller and smaller as you approach 90 degrees of cut angle (ultimately zero at 90 degrees). Unless you're very precise with the applied english, on a thin cut you may set up for, say, approximately 4 degrees of throw opposite the direction of the cueball along the tangent line, and end up with 5 degrees in the direction of the cueball! Nevertheless, I do take issue with the "no matter what you do to the CB" part of the statement.

Jim
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Hey Jim,

In your opinion, can a ball be cut more than 90 degrees?

Best,
Mike
 
can't be cut 90 degrees

Mikjary said:
Hey Jim,

In your opinion, can a ball be cut more than 90 degrees?

Best,
Mike
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Mike,

Hopefully Jim will comment as requested but I'd like to point out that two balls colliding at 90 degrees transfer zero force, they would touch without moving the object ball at all. All of the cuts at 90 degrees and close to 90 degrees are already taking advantage of other factors to gain force from. In theory a ball can't be cut 90 degrees, much less more than 90 degrees. On a field of green it is entirely possible to circle around a nearby ball and "cut it" 180 degrees! Obviously some of the same things that can create a full masse shot can be used to "cut" a ball more than 90 degrees.

Hu
 
dr_dave said:
Joey,

Your thread inspired me to create a webpage for the Top 100 Pool "Secrets" and "Gems". It is located here:

The subtitle for the page is:
"The things all great players know and wish they had known when they were younger."​
Check it out.

The site could have many more categories and hundreds of additional topics, but I limited the list to what I thought were the top 100 topics in 15 categories.

I've also provided links for most of the topics, providing additional resources (e.g., video demonstrations) and more information (e.g., illustrated instructional articles) for each.

Thanks for the inspiration and the thread! :thumbup:

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Nice list. #19 is wrong though. It's not a system. And it's also not the best to learn to aim or play. If so then your whole website is a waste.

In fact the very existence of your website and the information presented negates the need to hit a million balls.

This is completely anecdotal and by typing it I am probably jinxing myself but I am in the top four of a local tournament today precisely because I have learned how to aim in such a way that I don't have to hit a million balls to learn each shot. I am able to make shots that I have either never shot before or shots that were previously super low percentage for me when I subscribed to the Hit a Million Balls method. Yesterday my shotmaking was quite impressive to the spectators and to myself frankly.

Some of the shots I made were previously just completely out of bounds for me even though I have certainly hit a million balls in my life prior to learning how to aim the way I aim now. I would have either passed on the shot and played safe instead or completely butchered it.

So I am supremely grateful, personally as a player, to have this method which, for me, eliminates the need to hit a million balls. I am so glad that I am not a novice player who is subjected to your bias on this subject and thus steered away from this method by your biased comments. I can't talk about it any more than this because although it's not a secret anymore it's certainly a touchy subject and one that I have to sworn not to discuss certain methods in order to preserve my sanity on these forums. my email remains jb@jbideas.com for anyone who wishes to discuss aiming methods by name in private.

Your efforts are great but on the topic of aiming you are incredibly biased and kind of mean in your comments.

I do however like your list and think I will take it and make my own modified version with alternate links where appropriate. It's a great idea and one that deserves to have many folks emulating it which would only serve to benefit all players.
 
ShootingArts said:
Mike,

Hopefully Jim will comment as requested but I'd like to point out that two balls colliding at 90 degrees transfer zero force, they would touch without moving the object ball at all. All of the cuts at 90 degrees and close to 90 degrees are already taking advantage of other factors to gain force from. In theory a ball can't be cut 90 degrees, much less more than 90 degrees. On a field of green it is entirely possible to circle around a nearby ball and "cut it" 180 degrees! Obviously some of the same things that can create a full masse shot can be used to "cut" a ball more than 90 degrees.

Hu
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Balls going in from "impossible" angles is one of those things that makes pool so much fun.

Bob Jewett's 90 degree cut to the corner.

Vernon Elliot's bank shots.

Pool at it's highest level seems to defy physics. Of course theoretically the actions happening on the table can't defy physics. But one thing that I happen to find fascinating is that every day these days seems to bring with it some new discovery about how matter acts and reacts that was previously unknown.

Wouldn't it be just funny as shit to find out that what we think is happening during ball-to-ball collisions isn't what's happening at all? Take the super slow motion videos of what happens to the tip when a ball is struck....I was certainly surprised by the amount of deformation by the tip and would have bet against it.

Anyway, the fun is in the playing and making shots that make the spectators go nuts as well as which surprise yourself from time to time.
 
Mikjary said:
Hey Jim,

In your opinion, can a ball be cut more than 90 degrees?

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...
Hi Mike,

I think I've seen Bob Jewett do it in one of his videos.

As Hu (ShootingArts) points out, once you get to 90 degrees, geometrically speaking, there can be no forward momentum given to the object ball. The trick then is to hit it at less than 90 degrees, with copious amounts of outside english, and let a combination of throw (mostly throw) and the fact that the ball-ball compression time is finite work for you. The latter shifts the tangent line a bit, and the direction of the object ball accordingly, to create a slightly larger cut angle. But the main effect comes from throw, especially if you've juiced up the contact area with chalk, as I think Bob may have done. That allows you all the more thicker a cut, in the geometric sense, while relying on the magnified throw to make up the rest of the angle.

...can't say I've done it myself. :)

Jim
 
It is impossible to do a 90 cut shot.

This stroking upward thingie. It is very doable and being able to do so is the secret to making jacked up shots when the cue side of the CB is blocked.

With a level cue and hitting center ball is what I call 0 angle of attack. Raise the butt or lower the tip of the cue changes the angle of attack of the cue to the CB. With straight stroke through the CB, this means the cue goes through where the CB was at a angle.

With the cue level and at center ball, a 90 angle is made using the top of the CB. Also, since there is 0 angle of attack, there is nothing in front of the CB to prevent it from rolling easy when stroked.

But as the angle of attack increases, the table comes more into play as does where you make contact on the CB. With a increased angle of attack, you are stroking more into the table which tends to inhibit the forward movement of the CB. How much is determined by where you can hit the CB.

If you are able to hit below the horizontal center line while jacked up, not much of a problem because the CB will move way from the cue tip. But, having to hit above the horizontal center line when jacked up is a issue. This is where a simple upswing happens as you make contact with the CB comes into play.

You stroke straight and as you are are making contacting with the CB, you bring up the tip at a rate to match the movement of the CB. This is done using the wrist which more then "just two muscles"

Using this drawing, explain how a 90 cut is made.

When the CB is 90 to the OB, the only to make the shot is if the OB is hanging so close to falling in the pocket the the wind from the CB makes in go in.
 
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dr_dave said:
Thanks.

John,

I know I've been a little harsh towards "aiming systems" over the years, but I've also made an effort to help people understand and appreciate their value. For example, see:

Regards,
Dave
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Regardless I feel that you should take more of a neutral stance and not go out of your way to be antagonistic. Which, in my opinion, you did when you compiled the list section on aiming. You could have chosen to be more diplomatic but you didn't.

Also you would have to agree that Hitting a Million Balls with no instruction is not the best way to improvement for any aspect of the game to include aiming. That's like saying shooting a million arrows makes one an expert marksman. Certainly there is much to gained from sheer experience but much more to be gained by practicing solid lessons.

If anything your whole philosophy could be and should be summed up in eliminating the need to hit a million balls to get good. Isn't that really the purpose of your efforts?

As a scientist it shouldn't be a hard conclusion to reach that if one million balls were a true benchmark for getting "good" then any extra help to the student should shorten that number. Buddy Hall said in an interview that he started playing at 15 and turned "pro" (whatever that meant back then) when he was 17. He said he was around good players and absorbed techniques by observing what they did and then practicing those shots.

Do you honestly think that if someone were to have started at the same time as Buddy Hall but did NOT have anyone around to learn from BUT that person took three times as many shots as Buddy did in the same two years that they would have been as good as Buddy Hall?

This thread is about "secrets" in pool and when I was growing up in the pool room the railbirds would sit around trying to match up with me. Not one of them EVER offered me any advice on how to play. They would see me practicing, heading towards my "million balls" and never tell me what I was doing wrong. Never once give me a tip on technique. They would laugh their ass off when I would shoot a shot and my cue would fly up and hit the ceiling fan. Not one of them ever helped me to fix my stroke or did anything to make me a better player. That's because to them I was a greenhorn SUCKER with a job who got paid every two weeks which meant that one of them was going to get paid.

The only time I started getting help was when I started matching up and they figured to bet on me. Then I'd get a tidbit on how to play a certain guy, which shots to take when to play safe etc...

To fix my stroke I had to PAY for lessons. I paid a local instructor and went to his house and he videotaped me and that got my stroke more under control.

One of the guys who I got some shortstop level instruction from and who gave me a technique I still use more than ten years later told me he spent months on the road with Buddy and tried to ask Buddy about how to play and Buddy would just change the subject. According to my friend Buddy would never give up ANYTHING about he played and why he played the way he did. Finally towards the end of their trip Buddy gave up one tip that immediately made my friend a ball better according to him.

Guys like you think that all there is to playing great is simply practice. That's not all there is. You have to learn what to do and how to do it in the right way at the right time. Sometimes you can READ about something or watch a video and still not really get it until someone with experience comes along and shows you how to INTERPRET that information to make it practical. You look at pool from an amateur perspective and try to boil it all down to science without understanding the sport aspect of it. You don't understand the heart and nerves that go along with it. Yeah you talk about quiet eyes and I sure you will link to it but you don't understand the game from a player's perspective. In fact, very few people on AZ understand it from that point of view.

The good thing is that modern pool is big enough for all those points of view. Explaining pool from a scientific perspective has been around for 150 years at least. You have set yourself up as the leading science-guy in pool at the moment. Which is great and your body of work is tremendous. Hopefully someday you will stop abusing it when it comes to the subject of aiming.

Then you might be open to revising your opinion and getting in the grease to actually learn something outside your current skill set. If you ever do then I promise to stake you for a $200 set of 9-ball against anyone along the front range so that you can get some experience from my part of the pool world.
 
JAM said:
I know another pool player who would agree with you 100 percent. While everybody else has H20 bottles by their designated tables, this player has a brown bottle with a red-and-white label on his designated table. Never leaves home without it! :grin:
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I've never seen another player at the US Open sipping from a brown bottle other than the player that you are referring to. It works well for him because he beat Buddy Hall and Jose Parica on the TV table with a little help from the brown bottle. If it works don't change a thing!
 
a little piece of info i was given years ago by an older gentleman was to always play for something, be it a quarter a dollar or table time. his take on this was shooting for nothing made you lazy.:thumbup:
 
Thanks to pt109 for the link, Hu for the technical guidance, and especially Jal for the in depth perspective. I am including a shot diagram of a simple shot I have made over the years that isn't a secret, but may not be known to some. It involves cutting a ball more than 90 degrees using spin.

I was shown this shot by Dallas West years ago (and was struck by lightning after I saw it). I've cut a ball, by my estimate, about 95 degrees with spin.

The eight ball is an inch or so off the short rail and the cue ball is in line, up and down the table, parallel with the long rail. With a good stroke, soft speed, and center right spin, I can over cut the eight ball to side of the pocket on the long rail.

CueTable Help



The cue ball definitely will swerve with the outside english and a slow speed is best. The slow speed allows the spin to grab the object ball better and throw it backwards. You must use extreme spin. I cue about a tip and a half off of center. Any more than that and all you do is deflect the cue ball. By cueing closer to center you can use a dig stroke, ala the Pinoys and Efren, to get the most spin.

If you don't think this shot is possible, try it. It is also a great proposition bet. I have won quite a few lunches with this shot. BTW, some of the interesting by products/advantages of this shot in nine ball and ten ball is you don't move the cue ball very far. The soft speed allows for holding the cue ball instead of turning it loose. You can play a two way shot for a safe if you miss.

And as I've stated before, the object ball picks up a small amount of roll from the throwing spin. This allows you to hit the ball softer and control the cue ball better. If you don't know this shot, you need to learn it. No secret, but people say it's not possible. To those people, who read this and without trying it say,"BS. There's no way!", I will take that challenge for lunch. And I'm not talking Big Mac! :grin:

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
Thanks to pt109 for the link, Hu for the technical guidance, and especially Jal for the in depth perspective. I am including a shot diagram of a simple shot I have made over the years that isn't a secret, but may not be known to some. It involves cutting a ball more than 90 degrees using spin.

I was shown this shot by Dallas West years ago (and was struck by lightning after I saw it). I've cut a ball, by my estimate, about 95 degrees with spin.

The eight ball is an inch or so off the short rail and the cue ball is in line, up and down the table, parallel with the long rail. With a good stroke, soft speed, and center right spin, I can over cut the eight ball to side of the pocket on the long rail.

CueTable Help



The cue ball definitely will swerve with the outside english and a slow speed is best. The slow speed allows the spin to grab the object ball better and throw it backwards. You must use extreme spin. I cue about a tip and a half off of center. Any more than that and all you do is deflect the cue ball. By cueing closer to center you can use a dig stroke, ala the Pinoys and Efren, to get the most spin.

If you don't think this shot is possible, try it. It is also a great proposition bet. I have won quite a few lunches with this shot. BTW, some of the interesting by products/advantages of this shot in nine ball and ten ball is you don't move the cue ball very far. The soft speed allows for holding the cue ball instead of turning it loose. You can play a two way shot for a safe if you miss.

And as I've stated before, the object ball picks up a small amount of roll from the throwing spin. This allows you to hit the ball softer and control the cue ball better. If you don't know this shot, you need to learn it. No secret, but people say it's not possible. To those people, who read this and without trying it say,"BS. There's no way!", I will take that challenge for lunch. And I'm not talking Big Mac! :grin:

Best,
Mike
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I've done that shot several times except the OB is on the short rail and I am about full table length away. I was never shown the shot. The first time I did it I was practicing with someone and figured that I would give it a try just for the hell of it and it went in on the triple shimmed diamond we were playing on. The guy I was playing let out a HOLY S#@T!!! In my head I was screaming the same thing, but acted like I had made that shot a million times.
 
The SECRET inside of the SECRET.

Mikjary said:
Thanks to pt109 for the link, Hu for the technical guidance, and especially Jal for the in depth perspective. I am including a shot diagram of a simple shot I have made over the years that isn't a secret, but may not be known to some. It involves cutting a ball more than 90 degrees using spin.

I was shown this shot by Dallas West years ago (and was struck by lightning after I saw it). I've cut a ball, by my estimate, about 95 degrees with spin.

The eight ball is an inch or so off the short rail and the cue ball is in line, up and down the table, parallel with the long rail. With a good stroke, soft speed, and center right spin, I can over cut the eight ball to side of the pocket on the long rail.

CueTable Help



The cue ball definitely will swerve with the outside english and a slow speed is best. The slow speed allows the spin to grab the object ball better and throw it backwards. You must use extreme spin. I cue about a tip and a half off of center. Any more than that and all you do is deflect the cue ball. By cueing closer to center you can use a dig stroke, ala the Pinoys and Efren, to get the most spin.

If you don't think this shot is possible, try it. It is also a great proposition bet. I have won quite a few lunches with this shot. BTW, some of the interesting by products/advantages of this shot in nine ball and ten ball is you don't move the cue ball very far. The soft speed allows for holding the cue ball instead of turning it loose. You can play a two way shot for a safe if you miss.

And as I've stated before, the object ball picks up a small amount of roll from the throwing spin. This allows you to hit the ball softer and control the cue ball better. If you don't know this shot, you need to learn it. No secret, but people say it's not possible. To those people, who read this and without trying it say,"BS. There's no way!", I will take that challenge for lunch. And I'm not talking Big Mac! :grin:

Best,
Mike
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Mike,
This is an excellent shot and like most shots that you have never shot, is easier than some might first guess. A little practice and anyone can OWN this shot, well almost own. :D

The SECRET inside of the SECRET is the prudent use of English. I see people ALL OF THE TIME, using extreme amounts of English and they continue to miss the shot and/or miss shape and wonder why.

One of our old school players Howard Ikeda always said, one-half tip of English is all you need for most shots. He could also spin the cue ball as much as he needed to. Saw Howard hang with the great Jimmy Reid at Rackateer's in New Orleans many years ago.
 
Mikjary:
...as I've stated before, the object ball picks up a small amount of roll from the throwing spin.
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I still don't think it's throw that adds to the OB's roll distance - except indirectly by allowing you to hit the OB slightly fuller.

If spin-throw added distance to the OB's roll, it would add it on every sidespin shot, not just very thin ones. Is there any reason to think sidespin adds distance to the OB's roll on a straight shot?

pj
chgo

P.S. What's a dig stroke?
 
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