selling out to japan!

nick serdula said:
What I have heard is that alot of the cream of the crop cue makers are makeing a high percentage of thier cues for people that are willing to pay a premium and buy a high percentage of the cues produced. Because the buyers are sometimes paying another 50-100% in duties to get the cues legaly and sell them in thier country they ask that the cuemakers not sell below what they are offering to pay willingly.So the cue makers are bound only by the fact that if they sell at a lower price to the public they will only insure that thier best buyers will go elsewhere! Nick
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So Nick, is what you are saying that the American buying public should also be asked to pay this 50-100% duty premium? Lets say a Japanese dealer has to pay $ 1000.00 on a $ 2000.00 dollar cue, so he needs to charge 3000.00. So what I gather you are saying is that now the cuemaker in the US is bound to charge the 1000.00 also to his US customers? Man, thats a sweet deal if I ever heard of one. Lets take it a step further.. cuemaker A sells to a Japanese dealer and he charges the duties, when a Japanese buyer buys from our, or any American, site, he also pays the duties. So now I am getting charged the extra 1000.00 here, that means I cannot sell to the Japanese market cause it will be another 1000+ to import. If anyone cannot see how this is wrong, you are a nit and should be buying Balabushkas with the name on the forearm. So if anyone boycotts a cuemaker that is making cues solely for this reason, GOOD FOR HIM.

One other thing, it has been noted here, in the forum, that someone did ask a US cuemaker "not bound" (yeah ok) by a Japanese dealer, for a cue and he was told to go to the Japanese dealer. So I think that qualifies as the horses mouth.

Joe
 
cornerstone said:
this is a illusion, you are still working in the us ,paying taxes in the us, and selling your product to the us.if gm sold all there caddilacs to japan only not offering them for sale in the us,I would buy a Dodge and i hate dodges!.!.!I started this thread because iwas thinking about buying a boar on the second market,with very little margin for profit!and the ones i took to the show didnt sell and tony said I was $4,000 to cheap on the price,and it still didnt sell.I like his cues but alot of people were making comments about selling out!so I thought i would get more input before plunking down 7000+ FOR SOMTHING I MIGHT BE STUCK WITH
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Bill, here's a little history lesson. That cue you had at the show or something real comparable....you would have had an exceedingly tough time giving it away for $2500 in 1999. For many years, BB was basically a quasi production/custom shop with a standard line of cues. Many of these are the ones you see now for sell on ebay and elsewhere. Only after BB went exclusive to Japan, the cues seem to be bringing the big bucks. Also after this venture, the quality IMO was much, much improved, as the Japanese buyers simply won't tolerate shotty work. Personally, I don't blame Tony for doing what he did....you've got to pay the bills, right. But there are always consequences.

If it were up to me, US buyers with deep pockets would be better served patroning many of the other fine cuemakers who have not gone down this 'exclusive' path. And there are a lot of others guys selling to Lucky, but do not do anything exclusive. They don't seem to be hurting too bad here in the US.

And for the poster who pulled out the race card.....gimme a break, there's no racism here. It's just a bunch of people trying to understand the situation and offering opinions.

Sean
 
What If

OK, what would your attitude be if you had exclusives with a few high end cuebuilders? Say Cornerstone was the only place in the world that you can get Ginas for example or Motteys. Would your price go up on these cues.
I don't have a problem with anybody doing this it's a moot point in my case, being on the low end of the income chain. It's just a lot of people ***** about it but no US cue dealers will back a maker like Lucky does.

Andy
 
hay all

Lets say Tim Or Joe Or Frick or Frack sells a cue to Rucky and Rucky pays $2000. All Rucky cares is that no matter who the buyer is and how many they buy they pay the same as he dose before he makes the second investment of the duties! So this would eleminate discounts to all includeing Rucky. Now Rucky might buy halve the cues Frick or Frack make but when any other buyer wants cues they pay Rucky's cost before his duty fees.So he can't be under sold or cut. This means everyone pays top price and that includes me. I am glad for my cue maker friends that have finally caught a break. I am sorry I have no way to mark up a new cue because now you get the same price as Rucky and so do I. But if you have any of these cues put back you can thank Rucky because in the last four years he has forced the value of thies same second hand cues up 40& minimum. If you are a wholesaler you are at the short end. Nick
 
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DawgAndy said:
OK, what would your attitude be if you had exclusives with a few high end cuebuilders? Say Cornerstone was the only place in the world that you can get Ginas for example or Motteys. Would your price go up on these cues.
I don't have a problem with anybody doing this it's a moot point in my case, being on the low end of the income chain. It's just a lot of people ***** about it but no US cue dealers will back a maker like Lucky does.

Andy
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If someone had an "exclusive" with those two cuemakers it would drive the secondary market harder. BUT these two cuemakers do not need to have an exclusive dealer so its not a good example. Also on Lucky's site I think there are only two or three cuemakers that might be locked up. For them its a good thing, because there cues probably won't get near the dollar value the Japanese market might pay, or the asking price anyways.

One other thing, the second a US cuemakers hoards a cuemakers work, the masses will cry "he will be a greedy, scumbag don't buy cues from him" and to a lesser degree the cuemaker will also get some heat. Just like you are seeing now.

Joe
 
I figure prices on Japanese websites: Divide Yen by 112.5 Converts to USD. Take that number multiply by .5 and that gets what the cue would sell for in the US.

Andy
 
Meeself agrees

JimBo said:
People need to pay their bills, business is business, I see nothing wrong with anyone doing the best thing for their business and their families. Not to mention doesn't anyone read this group, the uneducated American market sucks for cues and cue makers, people would much rather try to get a bargin then pay for quality work. People like Marcus are rare, not the majority. What I see are people who would rather by a Coker instead of a Southwest, a Phillippi instead of a Gina and a Murrell instead of a Scruggs, then they want to talk up how these cues are "just as good". If I were a cuemaker I would follow the money. Anyone who wants a cuemaker to starve just to seel to people in his own country are the same crowd who buy lesser know cuemaker cues and brag about how they are "just as good", it's just bad business and a lack of education. Also in such a small world mis information seems to be king, people spout off about things they have no idea about. Joe Gold is NOT with Lucky anymore and there are no written contracts with Lucky. People need to go direct to the horses mouth before they spread rumors.
***************************Meeself agrees with the Jimbo man.Most of the naysayers werent supporting the cuemaker anyway.Mike S. OLOR][/QUOTE
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It Would Seem That.....

the cue dealers (wholesalers ?) are the most upset about this " .... Japan sellout.."!!

***** Gee - go figure that - what a surprise!!! *******
 
SirBanksALot said:
the cue dealers (wholesalers ?) are the most upset about this " .... Japan sellout.."!!

***** Gee - go figure that - what a surprise!!! *******
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I don't know about the person who started the thread, but as I told you before, in the grand scheme of things, one or two cuemakers that do this don't mean d**k.

There are plenty of good cues to go around. Which is why I don't understand the problem. I, you, other people can theorize why, but who really cares? You can get Gina's, Motteys, Skip Westons, Schicks, Fanellis, Barharts, and many other great cues here. When the market slows over in the orient, to the others that now want the American dollar.. lick the sweat off my red, white and blue balls cause you ain't getting my green. Not because I am mad at you, but like you I also have my principals, and reasons.

Joe
 
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DawgAndy said:
I figure prices on Japanese websites: Divide Yen by 112.5 Converts to USD. Take that number multiply by .5 and that gets what the cue would sell for in the US.

Andy
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www.xe.com is a very useful converter.

Joe
 
Good point Tony...

Mystick Cue Fan said:
I don't see anything of the sort. A better analogy would be if you worked at a chrysler plant making 45,000 and then got offered a job working in japan for 200,000, but after you got released form that job you came back to your old company who taught you the trade and was there for you when you made mistakes until you perfected your craft. And making it like they should automatically rehire you just because you know the job well. Well there are now much more qualified workers then before and the demand for your skill isn't as high. So who is chrysler going to choose? Someone who left them in the beggining when they were short of exp. Or the new guy with the college degree that will take less of a salary then you. No racism. Nothing too negative but I can agree with almost every single person on this thread about those cuemakers. It isn't so much that they sold out to japan it is the fact that they completely ostracized the american customers from buying any of their cues. When we were the ones buying them when they weren't as skilled, when they didn't have the demand, and thier general audience was very small. Now that they perfected the craft, broadened their horizons, and have some demand now they move on to another market. Leaving all their supporters behind. Tony and Joe are very good cuemakers. but they will never be mentioned with the likes of tascarella, searing, szamboti, ginacue, mottey, scruggs, and the rest. Who knows how big their demand would have been if they just kept the market open to anyone who wanted a cue from them. I guess we'll never know

Tony
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You are right that is probably a better analogy than the one I made. But I have this situation to tell you about. A friend of mine was offered a job in Taipei, Taiwan teaching English. His salary as a teacher in the USA is $32,500. The offer from Taipei was a 5 year contract for $118,000 each year, with a free furnished apartment, utilities paid. What does this mean in the whole scheme of things? That Americans dont like/ respect/ like to pay teachers? I dont think that is the case. It is just an example of supply and demand over in Taiwan. They have a shortage of college educated teachers that speak fluent English. Do you think his co-workers at the high school would consider him a traitor? Some might be jealous of a great opportunity. I guess it all depends on your perspective. If he would have taken the job, how would it affect his carreer here? I just think too many people want the world to stop; go back to the "good old days". The days of the USA being dominant economically in the decades after WWII have come to an end. There is competition from every country and as a businessman you have to go to the money if you are selling a product.
You made a lot of good points in your thread Tony! Thank you for the contribution. Its good to see someone's point written logically without all the bullsh*t peppered throughout. And I know some of the others have said my comments about racism is unwarranted but that is just my opinion. I am entitled to it right or wrong. But when an American collector buys up a bunch of cues by a particular cuemaker, driving up prices, I dont hear the same complaints as when "dem foreigners" are buying the cues. That is just my experience. Its just a cue guys. There are hundreds of quality cuemakers out there. Support the American cuemakers and stop pecking them to death to save $100 on a $3000 cue. That's probably more thier motive than money..avoiding the headaches of running a retail operation. :) Ok..done ranting and raving for now. Now I have to go work at the pool room till 4am. I will get plenty of comments up there from "good ole Americans" about how to fix our country.:eek:
 
cueandcushion said:
But when an American collector buys up a bunch of cues by a particular cuemaker, driving up prices, I dont hear the same complaints as when "dem foreigners" are buying the cues.
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Hey stop picking on Marcus... :D

Joe
 
FAST_N_LOOSE said:
HELL JOE, I'M STARTING TO LIKE ALL THE ATTENTION. WAIT TIL THEY SEE THE NEXT TWO THAT I FOUND.
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See? That's why nobody likes you . . . . you . . . . tascarella-ites from the foreign country of tascarella-dom. ;) :D
 
Wow.....

cueandcushion said:
The amount of goods coming IN to this country from overseas is letting us know that PRICE...NOT QUALITY...is driving our economic whims. For the few cuemakers that are in such demand that they can export them I say good luck. If Americans paid top dollar to get top quality then our manufacturing base would not be slipping away. Most the cues I sell now are from China, Indonesia, Taiwan etc. Pool tables are at 45% import and will be over 50% very soon. American consumers SAY they want to support American businesses and manufacturers, but the facts say otherwise. Cuemakers or whoever is signing an overseas contract is getting the most for his product. I am sure if an American wanted to buy out some cuemakers overseas contract...then all it would take is MONEY...If no one is doing it..you cannot fault the businessman. He is feeding his family and paying his mortgage same as everyone else. Most people buying cues are looking for a "deal" not looking to help the American economy.
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Lot said there Craig. I don't think I would contract all my business out of this country but you're right on the button with your post. I was at the Expo and in a parking lot full to the gills it was about 50/50 domestic to import autos and trucks. Good post man.
Jeff
 
I think I understand both the cue maker (since I am one) and the customer (since I am one) sides of this.

As the customer, I am pissed. I have always wanted a Dave Barrenbrugge cue and can't get one. Lucky wants $6k for most of them which I think is a bit too much. On the other hand, he gets it over there because the market will pay it. Can't say I blame him.

As the cue maker, man I gotta tell ya... I am human, Brother. If someone came up and flashed $100k in my face as prepayment for my next 40 cues... ummm.... welllll.... heh heh... Let's just say there is a chance I might have about $90k in the bank the next day. I got billz to pay, yall.
 
FAST_N_LOOSE said:
HELL JOE, I'M STARTING TO LIKE ALL THE ATTENTION. WAIT TIL THEY SEE THE NEXT TWO THAT I FOUND.
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Oooohhh I am telling Kristen there goes her engagement ring... AGAIN... :D

Hey maybe you should change your screen name to Tasc-N-Rella :D

Joe
 
classiccues said:
Oooohhh I am telling Kristen there goes her engagement ring... AGAIN... :D

Hey maybe you should change your screen name to Tasc-N-Rella :D

Joe
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YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN THE LOOK ON HER FACE WHEN I TOLD HER I WAS GOING AFTER TWO MORE. SHE CERTAINLY WASN'T HAPPY. I JUST KEEP TELLING HER I'M NOT READY TO SETTLE DOWN.
 
ScottR said:
See? That's why nobody likes you . . . . you . . . . tascarella-ites from the foreign country of tascarella-dom. ;) :D
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THAT IS FUNNY.......AND MY OWN LITTLE TASCARELLA-VILLE KEEPS GETTING BIGGER.
 
Marcus-
I have a question and its a serious one. I know you love Tascarella cues. and rightly so. They are beautiful (as is your collection). But what would you do if he signed with Lucky and stopped selling his cues here? would you still love and collect his cues?

I ask because I love Mottey and White cues. All of them! But if they packed up shop tomorrow and started selling exclusively to Japan, I hate to say it, but my attitude may change. I know it shouldn't, but it might.

Anyway, just curious to hear what your take is.

-Brian
 
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