Seminole PPV Stream/Opinions ??

[JCIN]

can someone please tell me what the average number of paying customers these events get for ppv?

i owned a marketing company and i'd like to work some numbers. perhaps i could help them obtain some sponsors for future events.

I seriously doubt anyone is going to give you an accurate answer in public. Mainly because its no one's business. Its a no win situation for the person selling the ppv's.

If its over what someone thinks then they will be "making all kinds of money" and if it's under then "they are silly for wasting their time and they might as well do it free".

I never ask other streamers who do PPV's what their numbers are and I don't tell anyone ours. It never ceases to amuse me to see a few pool detectives try to work out the millions we must be making though. It's kind of like the coin drop at a big event. It looks great until you ask them "What do you think 200 pool tables cost?" Every year people tell me with anger in their voices how much Mark Griffin makes off the BCAPL Nationals. Their ignorance used to piss me off now I just tell them that he spends it all on his mini-giraffe ranch in Tahiti.

PPV buys is one of those things that if you need to know it you already know it. A lot of people think they do and most smart people come pretty close in their guesses but at the end of the day they call it private business for a reason.

 

[jdxprs]

I seriously doubt anyone is going to give you an accurate answer in public. Mainly because its no one's business. Its a no win situation for the person selling the ppv's.

If its over what someone thinks then they will be "making all kinds of money" and if it's under then "they are silly for wasting their time and they might as well do it free".

I never ask other streamers who do PPV's what their numbers are and I don't tell anyone ours. It never ceases to amuse me to see a few pool detectives try to work out the millions we must be making though. It's kind of like the coin drop at a big event. It looks great until you ask them "What do you think 200 pool tables cost?" Every year people tell me with anger in their voices how much Mark Griffin makes off the BCAPL Nationals. Their ignorance used to piss me off now I just tell them that he spends it all on his mini-giraffe ranch in Tahiti.

PPV buys is one of those things that if you need to know it you already know it. A lot of people think they do and most smart people come pretty close in their guesses but at the end of the day they call it private business for a reason.

doesnt the ustream feed show the number of people who are watching at any given time? im sure the number of subscribers would be no more than double that for the total.

 

[JCIN]

I am going to be probably a bit more candid on this subject than I should be but here goes:

As far as the free vs PPV thing goes. I may have not done as many free streams as some but I guarantee I have lost more money doing free streams than ANYONE.

It doesn't work.

Anyone who tells you different is living on borrowed time and money.

There is certainly a benefit to doing streams free if you can afford it. It will help you build a brand if you have a good product and quality events. The thing is most of those quality events have already shaken out as to who is going to stream them. This argument for free streams is IMO at this point a non-starter.

TAR is out of the 100% free streaming business for one major reason. We want to survive. Personally, hustling for $200-$300 sponsors or trying to sell boxes of product in competition with giant online retailers in order to make enough money to break even is not my idea of a good time. Been there done that.

In my mind the way forward for us and I suspect any other streamers who run it as a business and not a hobby is a mix of free and PPV with the balance weighted in favor of PPV. Such as the first day of a 4 or 5 day event being free to show people what they can buy. Premium events like our TAR matches will be 100% PPV with some free streaming pregame type shows.

Its nothing new. The UFC has figured out niche marketing perfectly. You do PPV's to survive and grow a dedicated following until you reach the point that you have the ability to try and achieve mainstream recognition. Crawl, walk, run. If you can't survive the early stages you can't build anything to let you reach the later stages.

The free streams are great and will always be around at some level done by people who love the game and do it because they can. I do think that most premium events in the future will be streamed for the most part through PPV coverage. I have not seen free audience numbers make any dramatic improvement in the last year or so. I have seen marked improvement in PPV audiences for premium events. This tells me more people are comfortable paying for quality coverage of premium events and I see verifiable proof that more people are watching when everything is done right.

There is still a big shake up coming IMO. We are already seeing more and more people trying to do PPV events. So far with mixed success. This will first saturate the market and probably mean less buyers for each event until the inevitable shake out happens where the best providers with the best events will retain and gain market share while the others simply go away. Its an exciting time in the tiny industry of pool streaming and I think the competition will make the end product much better for the consumer.

I could talk about this stuff all day.

 

[JCIN]

doesnt the ustream feed show the number of people who are watching at any given time? im sure the number of subscribers would be no more than double that for the total.

Try a fraction of that ustream number. You would be closer to the mark. Do you know anything on earth that twice as many people pay to use as use it when its free?

 

[jdxprs]

Try a fraction of that ustream number. You would be closer to the mark. Do you know anything on earth that twice as many people pay to use as use it when its free?

im saying for the ppv, that probably everyone that pays doesnt stay on the entire time. and i figure by doubling the number it says are online, it would be a pretty good chance that you are overestimating the subscribers.

 

[jdxprs]

I am going to be probably a bit more candid on this subject than I should be but here goes:

As far as the free vs PPV thing goes. I may have not done as many free streams as some but I guarantee I have lost more money doing free streams than ANYONE.

It doesn't work.

Anyone who tells you different is living on borrowed time and money.

There is certainly a benefit to doing streams free if you can afford it. It will help you build a brand if you have a good product and quality events. The thing is most of those quality events have already shaken out as to who is going to stream them. This argument for free streams is IMO at this point a non-starter.

TAR is out of the 100% free streaming business for one major reason. We want to survive. Personally, hustling for $200-$300 sponsors or trying to sell boxes of product in competition with giant online retailers in order to make enough money to break even is not my idea of a good time. Been there done that.

In my mind the way forward for us and I suspect any other streamers who run it as a business and not a hobby is a mix of free and PPV with the balance weighted in favor of PPV. Such as the first day of a 4 or 5 day event being free to show people what they can buy. Premium events like our TAR matches will be 100% PPV with some free streaming pregame type shows.

Its nothing new. The UFC has figured out niche marketing perfectly. You do PPV's to survive and grow a dedicated following until you reach the point that you have the ability to try and achieve mainstream recognition. Crawl, walk, run. If you can't survive the early stages you can't build anything to let you reach the later stages.

The free streams are great and will always be around at some level done by people who love the game and do it because they can. I do think that most premium events in the future will be streamed for the most part through PPV coverage. I have not seen free audience numbers make any dramatic improvement in the last year or so. I have seen marked improvement in PPV audiences for premium events. This tells me more people are comfortable paying for quality coverage of premium events and I see verifiable proof that more people are watching when everything is done right.

There is still a big shake up coming IMO. We are already seeing more and more people trying to do PPV events. So far with mixed success. This will first saturate the market and probably mean less buyers for each event until the inevitable shake out happens where the best providers with the best events will retain and gain market share while the others simply go away. Its an exciting time in the tiny industry of pool streaming and I think the competition will make the end product much better for the consumer.

I could talk about this stuff all day.

$200-$300??? really? REALLY? Sir, I know companies that would drop 5 times that amount without even checking the numbers or possible roi.

Has anyone in your business (streaming pool events) ever hired a marketing company to represent you?

 

[JoeyA]

One thing that could possibly be done is to hire a marketing company, maybe one like the guy who mentioned it in this thread. The marketing company would have to be a bonafide marketing company, not just JoeyA sending out emails to his friends, praying that they would watch the livestream event.

You could hire the marketing company and pay them a portion of the proceeds. STRAIGHT COMMISSION. That way no money out of pocket expense. Let the marketing company take all the risk and let them build a database of pool players. The marketing company could stay in contact with the potential viewers and keep them motivated about the upcoming event. The live streamer already knows how much "interested" parties will pay for a quality live stream. What no one knows is how much slightly interested parties might be willing to pay for a live stream.

You can purchase a database from Dun & Bradstreet that won't necessarily target pool players but you never know, they might have a category for that as well.

The different league operators aren't going to easily give up their database of league players, especially to someone they don't know and maybe not even then.

Then too, you could hire local people in each city and state to collect the information needed for the database. Local people could go to the tournaments and talk up the live stream events and then get the contact information and send it on in to the Live Streamer. Again, straight commission only. No out of pocket expense.

I would bet a dollar to a doornail that there are people right here on AZ Billiards who could be easily motivated for some contract work of obtaining the database needed. Make it fair and you could be surprised.

An enterprising young person could do all of this themselves and coordinate all of the states and have local workers collecting the data. They could then offer to provide potential viewers for the live streamer. Ultimately, the live Streamer has to pay to have it done (preferably on a straight commission basis) or do it themselves. Once upon a time, I created a 1,000 person database by making telephone calls to each business. My success rate with one call was over 80% but I had the right target audience and a product that needed and wanted. It took about 5 minutes to explain what I was selling or I should say, 'GIVING AWAY". Four out of five people were signing up with just one phone call. Now I know that's 5,000 minutes and we know how many hours that equals but if you want it done right, you do it yourself or pay someone to do it.
I'm sure there are marketing companies out there that would do this.

Here's my idea. First I would find out how much the livestreamer would pay for genuine pool player/watcher contact information.

My plan would be to enlist volunteers/workers in every area where there are pool leagues and ask them to collect the data. I would lay out the program, detailing exactly what must be collected and how much they would be paid. I would help them develop different methods for procuring that information, much of it free such as FACEBOOK. Some of it would just take a person's time and some people have plenty of time on their hands. Treat them right and they will apply themselves to the needed task.

Anyway, I am about run out of steam for the moment. Long day at the dog park and yard work. That's all for now. Hopefully, one of these posts might help the live streamers eventually turn a profit.


JoeyA

 

[jdxprs]

One thing that could possibly be done is to hire a marketing company, maybe one like the guy who mentioned it in this thread. The marketing company would have to be a bonafide marketing company, not just JoeyA sending out emails to his friends, praying that they would watch the livestream event.

You could hire the marketing company and pay them a portion of the proceeds. STRAIGHT COMMISSION. That way no money out of pocket expense. Let the marketing company take all the risk and let them build a database of pool players. The marketing company could stay in contact with the potential viewers and keep them motivated about the upcoming event. The live streamer already knows how much "interested" parties will pay for a quality live stream. What no one knows is how much slightly interested parties might be willing to pay for a live stream.

You can purchase a database from Dun & Bradstreet that won't necessarily target pool players but you never know, they might have a category for that as well.

The different league operators aren't going to easily give up their database of league players, especially to someone they don't know and maybe not even then.

Then too, you could hire local people in each city and state to collect the information needed for the database. Local people could go to the tournaments and talk up the live stream events and then get the contact information and send it on in to the Live Streamer. Again, straight commission only. No out of pocket expense.

I would bet a dollar to a doornail that there are people right here on AZ Billiards who could be easily motivated for some contract work of obtaining the database needed. Make it fair and you could be surprised.

An enterprising young person could do all of this themselves and coordinate all of the states and have local workers collecting the data. They could then offer to provide potential viewers for the live streamer. Ultimately, the live Streamer has to pay to have it done (preferably on a straight commission basis) or do it themselves. Once upon a time, I created a 1,000 person database by making telephone calls to each business. My success rate with one call was over 80% but I had the right target audience and a product that needed and wanted. It took about 5 minutes to explain what I was selling or I should say, 'GIVING AWAY". Four out of five people were signing up with just one phone call. Now I know that's 5,000 minutes and we know how many hours that equals but if you want it done right, you do it yourself or pay someone to do it.
I'm sure there are marketing companies out there that would do this.

Here's my idea. First I would find out how much the livestreamer would pay for genuine pool player/watcher contact information.

My plan would be to enlist volunteers/workers in every area where there are pool leagues and ask them to collect the data. I would lay out the program, detailing exactly what must be collected and how much they would be paid. I would help them develop different methods for procuring that information, much of it free such as FACEBOOK. Some of it would just take a person's time and some people have plenty of time on their hands. Treat them right and they will apply themselves to the needed task.

Anyway, I am about run out of steam for the moment. Long day at the dog park and yard work. That's all for now. Hopefully, one of these posts might help the live streamers eventually turn a profit.


JoeyA

When hiring a marketing company, the way it works is, if you are hiring them to sell advertising for you, you generally give up approx. 20% of what they get you. If you hire them to create a campaign to market your product, you pay a standard monthly fee, plus the cost of the advertising.

for instance, if you wanted a certain amount of t.v. time, a certain amount of radio time, and X amount of print ads, you would pay for those things plus your monthly contract fee, or a 1 time deal fee to the marketing company. one of the benefits of this is a decent marketing company can get you very nice discounts for those services.

To come up with a simple but effective marketing plan for a business such as this, a marketing company like mine would probably do it for a 1 time fee of around a dime, or on a monthly contract for around $200 to $250 per month.

There is so much advertising money to be had, it's unreal. you just have to know where to look for it. Remember, almost every franchise has a REQUIRED amount of money that the franchisee must spend per year on advertising.

 

[JoeyA]

When hiring a marketing company, the way it works is, if you are hiring them to sell advertising for you, you generally give up approx. 20% of what they get you. If you hire them to create a campaign to market your product, you pay a standard monthly fee, plus the cost of the advertising.

for instance, if you wanted a certain amount of t.v. time, a certain amount of radio time, and X amount of print ads, you would pay for those things plus your monthly contract fee, or a 1 time deal fee to the marketing company. one of the benefits of this is a decent marketing company can get you very nice discounts for those services.

To come up with a simple but effective marketing plan for a business such as this, a marketing company like mine would probably do it for a 1 time fee of around a dime, or on a monthly contract for around $200 to $250 per month.

There is so much advertising money to be had, it's unreal. you just have to know where to look for it. Remember, almost every franchise has a REQUIRED amount of money that the franchisee must spend per year on advertising.

Can you guarantee a certain minimum amount of advertising/sponsor money?

JoeyA

 

[jdxprs]

Can you guarantee a certain minimum amount of advertising/sponsor money?

JoeyA

why would you want a guarantee? If the marketing company your hire is getting 20% they are going to be selling their ass off to make as much off the event as possible.

What can the stream provider guarantee? can you guarantee you will spend a certain amount promoting your stream? or how about a minimum number of people watching.

 

[JoeyA]

why would you want a guarantee? If the marketing company your hire is getting 20% they are going to be selling their ass off to make as much off the event as possible.

What can the stream provider guarantee? can you guarantee you will spend a certain amount promoting your stream? or how about a minimum number of people watching.

Idon't know but with your pay plan, you want to be GUARANTEED a certain amount of money or did I read your post wrong? Not trying to beat you up or anything like that.

I think a minimum amount of advertising dollars should be guaranteed or the up front money is waived. Just sayin...If no up front money then we're all good to go.


Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[jdxprs]

Idon't know but with your pay plan, you want to be GUARANTEED a certain amount of money or did I read your post wrong? Not trying to beat you up or anything like that.

I think a minimum amount of advertising dollars should be guaranteed or the up front money is waived. Just sayin...If no up front money then we're all good to go.


Thanks,
JoeyA

i think you are misunderstanding what i wrote. let me explain. if you hire me to get you advertisers for your stream, you pay nothing up front. The advertisers would pay you to promote their product. You would send me 20% of whatever they paid per the contract.

The other way is you would hire me to PROMOTE your product to people, to increase your "followers" or number of people that are watching your stream. There is no direct income to you for this service. The income you get for this comes as increased value for companies that would advertise with you. For this service, no company will do this for free. you will need to pay a set 1 time fee, or a monthly "retainer" so to speak, so that YOUR business will grow, thus making advertising on your stream more valuable to potential advertisers.

One of the best things you can tell a perspective advertiser is the amount of money you are spending to promote your company, and how you are promoting your company.

Potential advertisers will then see your company as a "cheap" way for them to get their name out there to a large group through a sort of group advertising venture.

 

[JCIN]

$200-$300??? really? REALLY? Sir, I know companies that would drop 5 times that amount without even checking the numbers or possible roi.

Has anyone in your business (streaming pool events) ever hired a marketing company to represent you?

The answer is yes and it always ends the same. The marketing firm makes a bunch of noise about huge potential deals that never seem to quite get there and then the money to pay them or the patience to deal with them runs out and they go away.

Personally I don't like paying for a job before its done.

Heres a deal for you though:

I'll hire you right now. But you only eat what you kill. You can have 50% of all sponsor deals you bring in over $1000. If numbers or ROI dont matter then its free money to both of us.

 

[jdxprs]

The answer is yes and it always ends the same. The marketing firm makes a bunch of noise about huge potential deals that never seem to quite get there and then the money to pay them or the patience to deal with them runs out and they go away.

Personally I don't like paying for a job before its done.

Heres a deal for you though:

I'll hire you right now. But you only eat what you kill. You can have 50% of all sponsor deals you bring in over $1000. If numbers or ROI dont matter then its free money to both of us.

sending you a pm.

 

[uwate]

maybe they could run a free feed that has many downgraded features. Like for example its 48-x640 size, low res and one stationary camera, no audio. The ppv guys get multicamera 1080p with commentary. Give the free moochers a reason to watch and then try to sell them on the benefits of the upgrade.

 

[SeminoleProTour]

I haven't really had time to read other the posts as I run the tournament, but I briefly skimmed through. Justin is absolutly correct. It is not that easy to collect sponsors that want to put their marketing money into this sport, especially main stream companies.

The money we do collect goes right back to fund the tour, not stuffing anybody's bank account. Its all done to grow the tour and ultimately the sport.

Cash is no longer king, just a forgotten uncle that no one likes to invite to the party anymore. Yet we keep increasing the money at our tournaments and though we get showen some grattitude from many, there are still those who all they seem to want to do is critizie and complain about why this or why don't you do that.

I would offer the same deal that Justin did. If something thinks its that easy I welcome them to work on commission and splitting any sponsorship over $1,000 a 50% split.

 

[jdxprs]

seminoleprotour,

i accept.

i have a busy week ahead of me as I will be on a business trip to boston, however I will by sometime next weekend make up a contract and forward it to you. please pm me your contact information.

 

[scooter_banks]

I hope whoever runs a stream for $$ makes it work unlike the stream today that worked for 20 minutes today. It went out and did not work again. I contacted multiple people for over 2 hours and still did not work. I watched the tourney ran by bigtruck last weekend for free and had no issues at all!!

 

[SeminoleProTour]

We tried to fix all issues that came up for users as fast as possible once we were contacted. I believe we resolved all issues that were brought to our attention.

You sent PMs via AZ, and I asked you to please contact us via our website where the issues occured. I never recieved a contact from you, so I assumed your issue was resolved.

 

[JoeyA]

seminoleprotour,

i accept.

i have a busy week ahead of me as I will be on a business trip to boston, however I will by sometime next weekend make up a contract and forward it to you. please pm me your contact information.

This sounds promising. Hope you will keep us informed about any contract or progress that you make with this.

JoeyA