serious rules question ie normal stroke

[alphadog]

If shooting down on a ball is legal,why isnt it legal to lift the cue up to get a legal hit?

I realize masse shots are almost as old the modern cue, lifting has to be almost as old. Did a unsavory character execute the first lift and thus it was declared "unsportsman like" ?

 

[Neil]

If shooting down on a ball is legal,why isnt it legal to lift the cue up to get a legal hit?

I realize masse shots are almost as old the modern cue, lifting has to be almost as old. Did a unsavory character execute the first lift and thus it was declared "unsportsman like" ?

Masse' shots have forward motion of the cue from back of cue to front of cue. Lifting just the tip does not.

 

[Gorramjayne]

Yup. Also a scoop typically will create prolonged or double contact. And even if you could do it sometimes without double-contact, you'd have nothing but arguments over whether a particular shot was double-hit when up in the air or if it was pushed up in the air instead of hit up, etc.

So, don't scoop. Just jump the right way.

 

[bbb]

If shooting down on a ball is legal,why isnt it legal to lift the cue up to get a legal hit?

I realize masse shots are almost as old the modern cue, lifting has to be almost as old. Did a unsavory character execute the first lift and thus it was declared "unsportsman like" ?

because according to the WPA RULES
8.2 Shot A shot begins when the tip contacts the cue ball due to a forward stroke motion of the cue stick. A shot ends when all balls in play have stopped moving and spinning. A shot is said to be legal if the shooter did not foul during the shot. - See more at: http://www.cuesight.com/wpa-definitions.html#sthash.JaGVMYjZ.dpuf
an upward stoke is not forward
a downward stroke is forward and down
jmho

 

[Skratch]

Yup. Also a scoop typically will create prolonged or double contact. And even if you could do it sometimes without double-contact, you'd have nothing but arguments over whether a particular shot was double-hit when up in the air or if it was pushed up in the air instead of hit up, etc.

So, don't scoop. Just jump the right way.

Adding: The problem with scoop shots is that the cue ball normally rides on the ferrule when done this way. The leather tip lifts the ball, but does not project the ball forward. While in the air the cue ferrule/shaft contacts the ball and makes it go forward during the follow through of the stroke. This breaks the double contact rule. To do a stroke that lifts properly, you have to be angled from below the ball, ie: through the slate of the table from below. This is obviously impossible. LOL...OR.....you have some seriously bent cue with the tip facing upward during the stroke!

>>>> Update: Found a youtube clip disputing my comment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWWMy5tj69s&index=1&list=PLaHpKOZ-a5sabh8fDO1rcsWnKj42DtPIS
Awesome stuff you can find there. LOL. Sorry for my mis-information.

 

[ShootingArts]

No good reason at all . . .

If shooting down on a ball is legal,why isnt it legal to lift the cue up to get a legal hit?

I realize masse shots are almost as old the modern cue, lifting has to be almost as old. Did a unsavory character execute the first lift and thus it was declared "unsportsman like" ?

I assume you are talking about the old move of putting the tip of the cue low on the curve of the cue ball and lifting up to move the cue ball very slightly when this is called for. Unlike some of the other things discussed, this only results in one contact of the cue ball with the leather tip.

The only reason it is illegal is because of the forward motion rule. I suspect you could get quite an argument going if you set up at ninety degrees to the direction you wanted the cue ball to go and had some forward motion along with the lift. Bert Kenister(sp?) claims a similar shot is legal on I think his hundred dollar DVD. I suspect it comes down to who can make the most convincing argument.

Hu

 

[alphadog]

I assume you are talking about the old move of putting the tip of the cue low on the curve of the cue ball and lifting up to move the cue ball very slightly when this is called for. Unlike some of the other things discussed, this only results in one contact of the cue ball with the leather tip.

The only reason it is illegal is because of the forward motion rule. I suspect you could get quite an argument going if you set up at ninety degrees to the direction you wanted the cue ball to go and had some forward motion along with the lift. Bert Kenister(sp?) claims a similar shot is legal on I think his hundred dollar DVD. I suspect it comes down to who can make the most convincing argument.

Hu

Exactly the shot I am referring to.straight down is not forward either. Scoop shots are poop shots and should be illegal.

 

[AtLarge]

Exactly the shot I am referring to.straight down is not forward either. ...

The WPA definitions just say "a forward stroke motion of the cue stick," but that means roughly in the direction the cue is pointing.

The CSI rules (for BCAPL and USAPL) are more explicit in defining a legal stroke: "'Forward' means relative to the cue itself, along the long axis of the cue and away from the butt, and has no relevance to any part of the table or any relationship to the player or any part of their body ..."

and then also in a later section of the CSI rules: "You must use a legal stroke. Any lifting, sideways, or other brushing motion of the cue, such that the force that propels the cue ball does not primarily result from a forward motion of the cue as defined under “Legal Stroke”, is a foul ..." And they illustrate an illegal lifting stroke with a diagram.

 

[Lonestar_jim]

If using the lift technique to commit an international foul in 14.1, I see no problem with it personally. Usually the gentle forward stroke nudge earns a triple hit anyway. Being that this is a known quantity, I see no reason to incur the wrath of the pool gods by committing an intentional foul with an illegal stroke.

As far as using the lift to make a good hit...can someone lay it out where this shot is desirable or exclusive to make a good hit ?

 

[fastone371]

If using the lift technique to commit an international foul in 14.1, I see no problem with it personally. Usually the gentle forward stroke nudge earns a triple hit anyway. Being that this is a known quantity, I see no reason to incur the wrath of the pool gods by committing an intentional foul with an illegal stroke.

As far as using the lift to make a good hit...can someone lay it out where this shot is desirable or exclusive to make a good hit ?

On a safety when cue ball, object ball, and cushion are all in very close proximity with one another. IE: When the forward motion of the cue may cause a double hit.

 

[Bob Jewett]

The lifting trick is not a permitted stroke. It is actually a miscue or the ball would be lifted off the table. An intentional miscue is unsportsmanlike conduct. See the fouls section of the WSR. I wrote a column about the lift a long time ago before it was specifically ruled on. See http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1997.pdf -- the article starts on page 11 of the PDF.

 

[Celophanewrap]

Just as a very small side note, and to be thorough, I would add that the WPA rule regarding the "lifting" stroke does not reflect the position of the APA where that stroke is actually a legal one

 

[alphadog]

The lifting trick is not a permitted stroke. It is actually a miscue or the ball would be lifted off the table. An intentional miscue is unsportsmanlike conduct. See the fouls section of the WSR. I wrote a column about the lift a long time ago before it was specifically ruled on. See http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1997.pdf -- the article starts on page 11 of the PDF.

Thanks Bob I knew I could count on you. AZ is lucky to have members such as yourself.

 

[hang-the-9]

Exactly the shot I am referring to.straight down is not forward either. Scoop shots are poop shots and should be illegal.

Scoop shots ARE illegal, at least when done on purpose (you are talking about the "jump" shot where you cue like a draw shot but lift the cueball up instead right?). They do happen on mis-cues and are technically a foul since the cue ball almost always hit the ferrule, but I have never seen that called as a foul. I think a ref or TD said "the result of a mis-cue on a shot is bad enough that a technical foul on a mis-cue hitting the ferrule is not often called".

Unless the "straight down" shot is done by holding the shaft of the cue over the ball and then letting the dip drop down on the cueball, it's still going forward during the shot, just in a downward direction. In something like a baseball analogy if they had the same rules, you can throw the ball directly forward, you can throw it up in the air, you can throw it at the ground, you cannot just hold your hand out and let the ball drop out (that is where lifting the cue up or letting it drop would be).