Setting the pin dead nuts

Kim Bye said:
When drilling and boring the hole, do you finish by reaming the hole?
Click to expand...
I do not. The carbide bit is squealing in the hole by then and quite snug. I have tried unchucking the bit and leaving it in the hole and measuring runout at the shank that was in the chuck prior to pulling it out of the hole and runout is minimal .001 or less. Don't think a reamer will improve on this enough to matter.
 
JC said:
This has been a bit of a challenge for me. I use modified 3/8 10 with a smooth barrel. The hole is always straight as the pins always turn with less than .001 runout on the tip dry. I have drilled them with a three flute carbide bit, bored them, reamed them. Tried it all and it's all straight.

I have tried a tight fit, a thou or so of clearance, a deeper barrel hole, a deeper threaded end. The problem comes in when gluing the pin in. My pins have a glue relief slot. I have used 5 minute epoxy, 20 minute epoxy, west systems, max 1618. After I put the pin in with the glue I can chuck it up and it's usually off by maybe a couple of thou max. I can push it over with a tiny thumb pressure and get it turning within a thou every time. Baby sit it for an hour with it sitting in the lathe and it's still dead on. Take it out of the lathe and stand it on end and the next day when the glue is cured the damn thing might have three thou of runout at the end of an inch of pin sticking out. Now of course this doesn't make the cue crooked as the joint faces take care of that and you really can't even see it with your naked eye spinning but it's frustrating as of course I want it perfect if possible. I have checked a lot of pins on other cues and they really aren't as good or better but that's not the point.

Any tricks or tips?
Click to expand...
JC,

I feel you pain and had to learn my o
wn method.

For many years I was tapping the bottom of the hole and I aimed for a close fit when boring the barrel dim. After about 150 cues under my belt I saw this as the root cause of my inability to see zero tro after the epoxy cured.

My corrective action was to eliminate the bottom tapping and create the barrel dimension .010 oversize to allow for tweaking the pin while indicating during the curing.

The lessoned learned by me was i am able to build my last 100 cues or so and ship them without rolling them to check them on the table or the rail.

Before It was hit or miss for trying to get zero run out. Then I started do this procedure and I never looked back:

Chuck up the cue and shim to zero run out + or minus .0005.

The barrel on my pin is .375.
Drill .312 to 1.3 depth
Bore to .350
Follow bore with a .384 stub drill
I do not tap the bottom of the hole

This gives me a .005 annulus clearance in the bore. Then I heat up 30 min epoxy to over 100 degrees and mix for 30 seconds.

I take a heat gun a and focus on the barrel and thread area of the pin to get it to warm to 100 or so.

Fill hole with warm epoxy and fit pin to the bottom burping any internal pressure in the hole.

I use a dial indicator calibrated to .0005 increments.

Then for the next 20 minutes I check the pin and am pushing the pin 1/2 way between high and low point over and over till the the distance is only about 2 thou.

Then I turn the lathe on at my slowest rotation speed and turn it off every minute to push the pin about three 3 more times.

When I get to zero I turn the lathe off and let the cue stay in that lathe for at least 1 hour.

When I reChekck the pin before extracting the cue from the chuck is always between zero and .0005. Once and awhile it stays on zero after curing.

Root cause of my woes before this procedure was by trying to keep a tight bore fit to the barrel and tapping the bottom of the hole, I was screwed sometime because if my bore was canted even a cunt hair I could not force the end of the pin in one direction during the Chem cure because of the tight bore fit.

By allowing the 5 thou annulus float, my y and z axis was able to be tuned in while the epoxy cured.

Today I have eliminated the shimming of the cue in the the chuck since I purchased a Hardinge secondary tool room lathe with collet chuck ( thank you Jeff Prather and his Dad ) and installed new bearings. Because this awesome lathe has as zero run out as i have ever seen. ( the indicator only trembles on the .0005 line of my dial at 1500 rpm ) I only experience a slight error of between 0 and .0005 after the cure takes place. This is a good indicated measurement with out compound error from a shimming process that is hard to reach that close to zero.

That's my story and I am sticking to it. LOL.

Good luck.

Rick





Center drill
 
Last edited:
scdiveteam said:
JC,

I feel you pain and had to learn my iwn method.

For many years I was tapping the bottom of the hole and I aimed for a close fit when boring the barrel dim. After about 150 cues under my belt I saw this as the root cause of my inability to see zero tro after the epoxy cured.

My corrective action was to eliminate the bottom tapping and create the barrel dimension .010 oversize to allow for messaging the pin while indicating during the curing.

The lessoned learned by me was i am able to build my last 100 cues or so and ship them without rolling them to check them on the table or the rail.

Before It was hit or miss for trying to get zero run out. Then I started do this procedure and I never looked back:

Chuck up the cue and shim to zero run out + or minus .0005.

The barrel on my pin is .375.
Drill .312 to 1.3 depth
Bore to .350
Follow bore with a .384 stub drill
I do not tap the bottom of the hole

This gives me a .005 annulus clearance in the bore. Then I heat up 30 min epoxy to over 100 degrees and mix for 30 seconds.

I take a heat gun a and focus on the barrel and thread area of the pin to get it to warm to 100 or so.

Fill hole with warm epoxy and fit pin to the bottom burping any internal pressure in the hole.

I use a dial indicator calibrated to .0005 increments.

Then for the next 20 minutes I check the pin and am pushing the pin 1/2 way between high and low point over and over till the the distance is only about 2 thou.

Then I turn the lathe on at my slowest rotation speed and turn it off every minute to push the pin about three 3 more times.

When I get to zero I turn the lathe off and let the cue stay in that lathe for at least 1 hour.

When I re Chek the pin before extracting the cue from the chuck is always between zero and .0005. Once and awhile it stays on zero after curing.

Root cause of my woes before this procedure was by trying to keep a tight bore fit to the barrel and tapping the bottom of the hole, I was screwed sometime because if my bore was canted even a cunt hair I could not force the end of the pin in one direction during the Chem cure because of the tight bore fit.

By allowing the 5 thou annulus float my y and z axis was able to be tuned in while the epoxy cured.

Today I have eliminate the shimming of the cue in the the chuck since I purchased a Hardinge secondary tool room lathe with collet chuck ( thank you Jeff Prather and his Dad ) and installed new bearings. Because this awesome lathe has as zero run out as i have ever seen. ( the indicator only trembles on the .0005 line of my dial at 1500 rpm ) I only experience a slight error of between 0 and .0005 after the cure takes place. This is a good indicated measurement with out compound error from a shimming process that is hard to reach that close to zero.

That's my story and I am sticking to it. LOL.

Good luck.

Rick





Center drill
Click to expand...
You have a collet chuck with zero run-out and you can't install a joint screw the right way ?
There is ZERO reason why you can't bore the hole for the alignment barrel dead nuts and still have some wiggle room at the bottom threads .
That's the the undersized threads are for at the bottom . They do not have to be dead nuts.

Joint screws with no strong mechanical bond at the bottom is a disaster waiting to happen, and I'm sticking to that logical thought .
 
JoeyInCali said:
You have a collet chuck with zero run-out and you can't install a joint screw the right way ?
There is ZERO reason why you can't bore the hole for the alignment barrel dead nuts and still have some wiggle room at the bottom threads .
That's the the undersized threads are for at the bottom . They do not have to be dead nuts.

Joint screws with no strong mechanical bond at the bottom is a disaster waiting to happen, and I'm sticking to that logical
Click to expand...
 
Sounds a little paranoid to me!👀🤪

So if you believe that if the epoxy fails for some reason in the bore of your cue that the undersized threads will keep you playing and breaking racks for years to come. Sorrrrrrry, I don't think so PJ. I don't see any logic, just your normal narcissistic banter that I have grown to love to read. LOL

I have built my last 100 cues this way, not one failure.

My good friend has built over 4000 cues in 30 years and has never threaded the bottom and had no failures.

Aristotle would view that kind of imperacle data from a 100% quality control sampling of over 4000 units to be pretty logical.

Again if the epoxy fails, it would likely be from a bad batch from the factory. The threads at the bottom ain't going to be any salvation if your epoxy fails on one of your Joey cues either.
 
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scdiveteam said:
Sounds a little paranoid to me!👀🤪

So if you believe that if the epoxy fails for some reason in the bore of your cue that the undersized threads will keep you playing and breaking racks for years to come. Sorrrrrrry, I don't think so PJ. I don't see any logic, just your normal narcissistic banter that I have grown to love to read. LOL

I have built my last 100 cues this way, not one failure.

My good friend has built over 4000 cues in 30 years and has never threaded the bottom and had no failures.

Aristotle would view that kind of imperacle data from a 100% quality control sampling of over 4000 units to be pretty logical.

Again if the epoxy fails, it would likely be from a bad batch from the factory. The threads at the bottom ain't going to be any salvation if your epoxy fails on one of your Joey cues either.
Click to expand...
You're actually arguing and advising.people to float their joint screws?
Wait, you really are.
Your good friend didn't know how to bore a straight hole either?
And your dead nuts lathe can't either?
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS ,IF NOT MILLIONS OF CUES, do not have floating joint screws and are straight. Your "friend" who built 4000 cues also used rubber bushing in his collars. Wait, not one failed either? Aristotle did not examine those 4000 cues for buzz or rattle . I can tell you Meucci made thousands and thousands of slammed-in all thread joint screws and they are infamous for buzzes and rattle .
Best defense to epoxy failure ( besides sound practices ) is mechanical bond .
Even if that thread is undersized, the threads still support the screw from pulling up. Hence, the epoxy has less stress . You actually need that explained to you after making 100 fancy RT cues?
 
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scdiveteam said:
Sounds a little paranoid to me!👀🤪

So if you believe that if the epoxy fails for some reason in the bore of your cue that the undersized threads will keep you playing and breaking racks for years to come. Sorrrrrrry, I don't think so PJ. I don't see any logic, just your normal narcissistic banter that I have grown to love to read. LOL

I have built my last 100 cues this way, not one failure.

My good friend has built over 4000 cues in 30 years and has never threaded the bottom and had no failures.

Aristotle would view that kind of imperacle data from a 100% quality control sampling of over 4000 units to be pretty logical.

Again if the epoxy fails, it would likely be from a bad batch from the factory. The threads at the bottom ain't going to be any salvation if your epoxy fails on one of your Joey cues either.
Click to expand...
If you have a toolroom lathe that's super accurate, what's the point in negating that accuracy by drilling a oversized hole?
If your pins are nice and straight and your setup for threading is properly adjusted, you should be getting acceptable results. Even though marine epoxy is super strong, it can get brittle over time, why not take advantage of that mechanical bond in that perfectly sentered hole you drilled and threaded?
I think that chasing zero runout when working with wood is an endless source of frustration.
I don't have a Hardinge HLV, but I do have a set-tru 5c collet chuck and a rear chuck all dialed in using a 1" ground and polished linear Motion shaft and I use some really nice high quality 5c collets. That setup gives me accuracy enough for what I'm doing.
 
The lovely world of relying on threads to do something threads were never meant for.

Also, this is wood we are dealing with. Even if you get run-out less than you can measure, it will change eventually.
 
When you torque down on a 60 degree screw thread, which is what most joint pins in cues are, the minor nor major diameter of the pin are not the determining factor on run out. 60 degree threads fit and torque on pitch diameter. Trying to get a tapped pitch diameter to run perfect is hit or miss at best. The best way to cut internal pitch diameters is by single point chasing, which most cue guys are not equipped to do.
 
DeeDeeCues said:
Also, this is wood we are dealing with. Even if you get run-out less than you can measure, it will change eventually.
Click to expand...

If you don't mind me asking, do you bother to measure pin runout or just eyeball it and see if the cue rolls straight?
 
scdiveteam said:
JC,

I feel you pain and had to learn my o
wn method.

For many years I was tapping the bottom of the hole and I aimed for a close fit when boring the barrel dim. After about 150 cues under my belt I saw this as the root cause of my inability to see zero tro after the epoxy cured.

My corrective action was to eliminate the bottom tapping and create the barrel dimension .010 oversize to allow for tweaking the pin while indicating during the curing.

The lessoned learned by me was i am able to build my last 100 cues or so and ship them without rolling them to check them on the table or the rail.

Before It was hit or miss for trying to get zero run out. Then I started do this procedure and I never looked back:

Chuck up the cue and shim to zero run out + or minus .0005.

The barrel on my pin is .375.
Drill .312 to 1.3 depth
Bore to .350
Follow bore with a .384 stub drill
I do not tap the bottom of the hole

This gives me a .005 annulus clearance in the bore. Then I heat up 30 min epoxy to over 100 degrees and mix for 30 seconds.

I take a heat gun a and focus on the barrel and thread area of the pin to get it to warm to 100 or so.

Fill hole with warm epoxy and fit pin to the bottom burping any internal pressure in the hole.

I use a dial indicator calibrated to .0005 increments.

Then for the next 20 minutes I check the pin and am pushing the pin 1/2 way between high and low point over and over till the the distance is only about 2 thou.

Then I turn the lathe on at my slowest rotation speed and turn it off every minute to push the pin about three 3 more times.

When I get to zero I turn the lathe off and let the cue stay in that lathe for at least 1 hour.

When I reChekck the pin before extracting the cue from the chuck is always between zero and .0005. Once and awhile it stays on zero after curing.

Root cause of my woes before this procedure was by trying to keep a tight bore fit to the barrel and tapping the bottom of the hole, I was screwed sometime because if my bore was canted even a cunt hair I could not force the end of the pin in one direction during the Chem cure because of the tight bore fit.

By allowing the 5 thou annulus float, my y and z axis was able to be tuned in while the epoxy cured.

Today I have eliminated the shimming of the cue in the the chuck since I purchased a Hardinge secondary tool room lathe with collet chuck ( thank you Jeff Prather and his Dad ) and installed new bearings. Because this awesome lathe has as zero run out as i have ever seen. ( the indicator only trembles on the .0005 line of my dial at 1500 rpm ) I only experience a slight error of between 0 and .0005 after the cure takes place. This is a good indicated measurement with out compound error from a shimming process that is hard to reach that close to zero.

That's my story and I am sticking to it. LOL.

Good luck.

Rick





Center drill
Click to expand...


Floating your joint pin in a puddle of epoxy is one of the dumbest things you've come up with yet.

Where do you indicate off this floated pin technology? Off the end of the bullnose I suspect?

Think about it for just one short 15 seconds of your life. If you are indicated off the bullnose....the glue has set (ain't no more massaging your pin rickie, at least not the one in the cue).......You can have a perfectly centered bullnose according to your dial indicator, HOWEVER >>>

Explain to us how you are confident the back end of the pin is running exactly down the center line of the over sized and drilled hole you just flooded with epoxy???

Let me guess...........you take your final pass on the butt AFTER the pin epoxy has cured because that's how you cover up the inconsistences you created by doing this goofy floating your pin operation.

I will guarantee you will have cues coming back your way with noises or popped pins doing this floated pin op. Many have already tried this method and have failed. Now you're going to try and convince us you're smarter than everyone else who has tried?

Good luck with your new found insanity.
 
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kling&allen said:
If you don't mind me asking, do you bother to measure pin runout or just eyeball it and see if the cue rolls straight?
Click to expand...

I measure it, but I want the faces to determine the straightness of the cue and I hate having the shaft threads very tight. A pin should only provide axial/clamping force.

It's all about tolerances.
 
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