Settle a deflection argument

[jed1894]

Jed

when you two play what shaft does the winning.

bill

That's a very good point and very funny. I usually do the winning because I'm better. He's only been playing about 3 years and got caught up with the LD shaft thing. I could win against him with either shaft. He does not understand much about throw, deflection, etc. In his head he is better with the LD shaft. In my opinion he plays just as good with the stock shaft, but I don't want to bust his bubble.

jed

 

[dr_dave]

If a player knows how to adjust for deflection with the shaft he is using, a low deflection shaft will not help him regardless of what english he uses.

Maybe so, and maybe no. Low squirt shafts can certainly have advantages and/or disadvantages for different people. For more info, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt​

Regards,
Dave

 

[jed1894]

Another point

Another point of interest would be unwanted spin with a LD shaft. Let me explain:

I have two LD shafts (OB-1 and 314). Both are good shafts and have their good and bad points. However, I just feel more connected to the cue with the solid hit (in my case, a Schon) of a maple shaft. I feel more in touch with the cue ball I guess.

Back to my question: Has anyone experience unwanted spin or throw with a LD shaft (more so than a maple shaft)?

If a LD shaft puts more spin on a cue ball (if that is true), wouldn't a player with an LD shaft have to be very accurate (tip placement on cue ball) compared to an OEM shaft. In my case, the hard Schon tip is harder to spin the ball compared to my LD shafts. So, if I am correct, the hard tip puts less spin on the cue ball making it more true to where I aim. I can move the cue ball around easier with the LD shafts but I miss longer, straight shots with the LD shafts more than the maple shaft. When using the LD shafts, sometimes the object ball will fly off (or stray off) more with the LD on longer shots when I hit center cue ball (or at least I think I'm hitting cue ball) and I'll say to myself - "where did that come from." Needless to say, I did not hit center cue ball.

So, would it be true that a player has to be careful, not careless, with a LD shaft more so than with a OEM shaft on long, center-cue ball hits? Seems like a maple shaft would be more forgiveing on long, center contact shots.

Opinions?

jed

 

[TATE]

Words of truth.



I think you're right. Lower deflection only really comes into play on shots with sidespin. I've often heard people claim that drawing the ball is easier with a low-deflection shaft, but I don't buy it. The physics doesn't hold up, which makes me conclude it's only a placebo effect.

-Andrew

I totally agree with this and in fact, I would say my experience is that LD shafts are less effective and more inclined to miscue at the extremes of top, draw and side spin than conventional shafts (although I can't prove it). It could be due to several reasons, but that's my impression.

Chris

 

[dr_dave]

I totally agree with this and in fact, I would say my experience is that LD shafts are less effective and more inclined to miscue at the extremes of top, draw and side spin than conventional shafts (although I can't prove it). It could be due to several reasons, but that's my impression.

I have tested the miscue limits for shafts of radically different amounts of squirt. For more info, and a video demo of results, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#miscue​

For a typical non-LD shaft compared to a typical LD shaft, the difference is minuscule (assuming the tip is the same on both).

Regards,
Dave

 

[LAMas]

In engineering mechanics, deflection is a term that is used to describe the degree to which a structural element is displaced under a load.

Is the shaft deflection more on a LD shaft or less (low). Is it not deflecting but has low end mass? Does it squirt less?

 

[dr_dave]

Is the shaft deflection more on a LD shaft or less (low). Is it not deflecting but has low end mass? Does it squirt less?

See:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#terminology​

An LD shaft creates less "cue ball deflection."

Regards,
Dave

 

[LAMas]

See:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#terminology​

An LD shaft creates less "cue ball deflection."

Regards,
Dave

Angular departure from the line of aim of the cue when hit to the left or right of center of the CB?
Thanks.

 

[tucson9ball]

Lil more food for thought........with a good stroke, you won't have to put extreme english/sidespin. This also will give you less deflection due to hitting the cue ball closer to center ball.

 

[pooltchr]

I when hitting hard you are going to end up off center significantly.

You might, but if you do,, you need a better stroke more than you need a different shaft!

Steve

 

[pooltchr]

Good point. So, I suppose one could say that a LD shaft could help a less-than-accurate-player because of unintentional hitting off center of the cue ball. Good point and something to consider. BUT.....since a LD produces more spin (or so some say), wouldn't unintentional off-center hits produce unwanted spin and cause unwanted throw?

jed

Shafts do not produce any spin. It's just a piece of wood. What you do with the shaft produces spin.
Unintentional off-center hits will always produce unwanted spin regardless of your shaft. Hitting off center will also produce cue ball squirt regardless of your shaft.

Steve

 

[pooltchr]

I totally agree with this and in fact, I would say my experience is that LD shafts are less effective and more inclined to miscue at the extremes of top, draw and side spin than conventional shafts (although I can't prove it). It could be due to several reasons, but that's my impression.

Chris

Miscues are caused by WHERE the tip makes contact with the ball. You can use an elephant training ball to prove this to yourself. Take a standard shaft and start moving away from center until you miscue. Make note of where the chalk mark is on the ball. Now do the same thing with an LD shaft. When you miscue, you will find the chalk mark in the same place. (Assuming you haven't changed your stroke, and you have a good tip on both shafts)

Steve

 

[LAMas]

Another point of interest would be unwanted spin with a LD shaft. Let me explain:

I have two LD shafts (OB-1 and 314). Both are good shafts and have their good and bad points. However, I just feel more connected to the cue with the solid hit (in my case, a Schon) of a maple shaft. I feel more in touch with the cue ball I guess.

Back to my question: Has anyone experience unwanted spin or throw with a LD shaft (more so than a maple shaft)?

If a LD shaft puts more spin on a cue ball (if that is true), wouldn't a player with an LD shaft have to be very accurate (tip placement on cue ball) compared to an OEM shaft. In my case, the hard Schon tip is harder to spin the ball compared to my LD shafts. So, if I am correct, the hard tip puts less spin on the cue ball making it more true to where I aim. I can move the cue ball around easier with the LD shafts but I miss longer, straight shots with the LD shafts more than the maple shaft. When using the LD shafts, sometimes the object ball will fly off (or stray off) more with the LD on longer shots when I hit center cue ball (or at least I think I'm hitting cue ball) and I'll say to myself - "where did that come from." Needless to say, I did not hit center cue ball.

So, would it be true that a player has to be careful, not careless, with a LD shaft more so than with a OEM shaft on long, center-cue ball hits? Seems like a maple shaft would be more forgiveing on long, center contact shots.

Opinions?

jed

You can sand the tip of your LD cue tip flat for a more accurate centerball hit on the CB.

 

[Roger Long]

That's a good point. I was playing a Filipino over here by the name of Galego. He uses a 314 shaft. He was making shots that I wouldn't have even considered. When we were finished we were talking cues and I handed him my JMW and he couldn't make many shots with it using spin. If I ever had any interest in those low deflection shafts it went out the door at that moment. Here was a pro level player that was dependent on a low deflection shaft. I never want to be like that. At least with my cue I'm adjusted to it and if I have to change to another cue I can adjust for that within a reasonable amount of time.
MULLY

My thoughts exactly, Mully. It's a matter of dependency. I've never wanted my game to become dependent on an expensive shaft that is not easily replaced if something should happen to it. I can achieve anything I need with a good stroke and a little practice.

If solid maple shafts were good enough for greats like Willie Mosconi, they should be good enough for anyone. :thumbup:

Roger

 

[randyg]

My thoughts exactly, Mully. It's a matter of dependency. I've never wanted my game to become dependent on an expensive shaft that is not easily replaced if something should happen to it. I can achieve anything I need with a good stroke and a little practice.

If solid maple shafts were good enough for greats like Willie Mosconi, they should be good enough for anyone. :thumbup:
Roger

Different era, different game.....SPF=randyg

 

[Nostroke]

If solid maple shafts were good enough for greats like Willie Mosconi, they should be good enough for anyone. :thumbup:
Roger

That's just silly.

If wooden shafts were good enough for Bobby Jones......

 

[ghostball]

Sence

If a player knows how to adjust for deflection with the shaft he is using, a low deflection shaft will not help him regardless of what english he uses.

Could Mosconi have run more than 526 with a low deflection shaft? I doubt it, in fact a low deflection shaft might have screwed up his game because he was used to the standard shafts.

Now that is common sence.
ray

 

[TATE]

Miscues are caused by WHERE the tip makes contact with the ball. You can use an elephant training ball to prove this to yourself. Take a standard shaft and start moving away from center until you miscue. Make note of where the chalk mark is on the ball. Now do the same thing with an LD shaft. When you miscue, you will find the chalk mark in the same place. (Assuming you haven't changed your stroke, and you have a good tip on both shafts)

Steve

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-47.htm

Tbis shows where more weight at the end makes a difference on the miscue limite - however, I just read Dave's comments that for the usual shafts we use, the difference is small.

Chris

 

[qfans]

LD or not

I use a Predator Z2 and have a Mcdermott with standard shaft also, using the z2 its much easier to draw or follow it requires less effort. If using left or right english requires less deflection in aiming the cue why wouldn't it also cause more draw or follow than a standard shaft. The LD shafts will generate more spin with less effort whether its top, draw, left or right, I think the key here is LESS EFFORT.

 

[mikepage]

My thoughts exactly, Mully. It's a matter of dependency. I've never wanted my game to become dependent on an expensive shaft that is not easily replaced if something should happen to it. I can achieve anything I need with a good stroke and a little practice.

If solid maple shafts were good enough for greats like Willie Mosconi, they should be good enough for anyone. :thumbup:

Roger

Well solid maple shafts ARE good enough for everybody. But that doesn't mean it's unreasonable to prefer something new and different.

It's interesting you use the "dependency" argument, because I've always seen that as an argument actually in favor of LD-shafts.

If I play with an old Huebler with a shaft that's been uniquely tapered by decades of minor maintenance, then if something happens I'm not going to be able to replace it with anything that feels the same or squirts the same.

If something happens to my stock OB-2 shaft, on the other hand, I can at least replace it quickly with something that feels and performs more or less the same.