Several reasons why not to support the IPT

[AuntyDan]

Like many others before, IPT sees itself as its own authority and does not wish to be under the scrutiny of any legitimate body, such as the WPA.

Why is this self-appointed body any different from WPA? Did every pool player in the world vote to create the WPA or to decide it's board and how it's funds are spent? Legitimacy is created by sucess. The BCA is only legitimate becuase it has succeeded in existing for a long time, but on almost every other level to do with Pool as a Sport it has no legitimacy as it is a trade organization, not a players' organization. Yet the BCA is about the only "legitimate" body most American players recognize.

But comments like “I am not doing this to make money.” have to be queried. It may be true that Mr. Trudeau doesn’t have to make money on this venture, but there is no doubt in most minds that this really is his objective – to make money.

It's called promotional sponsorship. Companies do this to get exposure for their brand and sell more of their products, which is profitable for them. Assuming he believes he is increasing his sales enough there is no requirement for the IPT to make an operating profit as well, but if he can also do that so what?

Because at the end of the day the sanctioning doesn’t cost them anything; it is for free because the sanctioning fee comes from the added prize fund...Is their reason because they wouldn’t want the WPA to receive so much money?

Sorry for merging these together, but if I am reading this correctly it implies the WPA sanctioning fee is a percentage of the prize fund. Is this correct? If so I can see the core issue the IPT would have, this makes no sense for a business looking to invest in a new sponsorship oppourtunity. The WPA is penalizing the IPT for having a large purse, which frankly is the raison detre of the IPT as far as all the players and fans are concerned. To say it is "for free" is just plain wrong. The IPT is putting up the vast majority of the money, even if they get a large field of players to pay the $899 membership, the $199 entry fees and sell a few hundred tickets to spectators for $35. You mention income from TV rights, well until or unless the IPT can create a product that TV stations actually want to buy then the IPT will be doing what the WPBA do, which is paying ESPN to put their matches on TV and trying to make up the costs by selling advertising spots and sponsorship. But if you read their website, again, the WHOLE operation is one big sponsorship scheme for Mr. Trudeau's enterprises. Therefore it makes perfect sense for him to pay in prize funds whatever he feels the value of that sponsorship is, and no sense for him to pay a percentage to the WPA for doing nothing he is not already paying to do himself.
Does the value of the paying the WPA sanctioning fee magically increase with every $1,000 they get out of a tournament prize purse? If you get $20,000 instead of $2,000 does the WPA do 10x as much work to promote and organize the event? Does the WPA even do ANY work to promote and organize a sanctioned event? I've never seen any WPA promotional work here in the USA myself, has anyone else?
Seriously, unless you specifically WANT to push away promotors who want to have large prize fund events in Pool you have to consider having a flat fee or maximum cap for WPA sanctioning.

 

[pete lafond]

I wish the best for IPT and the success of billiards in North America. Players deserve solid paydays.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Why is this self-appointed body any different from WPA? Did every pool player in the world vote to create the WPA or to decide it's board and how it's funds are spent? ... .

Well, effectively, yes, they did. The WPA consists of national pool federations, and those federations are often based on a voting membership. To the extent that any organization is a legitmate, recognized sporting organization for world pool, the WPA is that organization.

In many countries, the national member of the WPA gets money from the government because of the legitimacy of the WPA and the WCBS and the recognition of the IOC.

Many people posting in the IPT threads seem to think that the future of pool is somehow connected to the US, or that the US is the largest market for it. I don't think either of those is true. I think the future champions are mostly going to be from Europe and Asia, and the largest markest for pool are there.

Some people were talking about the IPT having open events. As I read the press stuff and transcripts, this is not planned. People will be allowed to play on the IPT tour only by invitation of the IPT. Or did I misread something? From the point of view of the IPT, what use would an all-Taiwanese finals be to them?

 

[Teddy Harris]

Some people were talking about the IPT having open events. As I read the press stuff and transcripts, this is not planned. People will be allowed to play on the IPT tour only by invitation of the IPT. Or did I misread something?

There is an invitational tournament or two scheduled...but the rest are open to anyone that pays the $899- membership fee. It is there on the site...just keep looking.

 

[SplicedPoints]

I am not against the IPT. I also think the top players in our sport should get the chance to make a decent living. Given the current state of professional pool, it is a worthy risk to take. I just hope we don't burn too many bridges in case this thing doesn't pan out.

The WPA isn't perfect, but it is still the only officially international sanctioning body for pool. I think it would be best if the WPA is involved somehow in the IPT.

Also, I really doubt the WPA is a huge bureaucracy with lots of cash going to them. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the WPA execs are donating their services pro bono.

 

[T411]

I was curious about the opinion and thoughts of the IPT from the other “governing bodies” or tours in pool were going to be. Sounds like the WPA is sweating.

 

[berry]

Sweating is not the correct word. They are very scared that this person is a wild gun without any feeling for the sport. He doesn't care about other tournaments (who are there for many year) but he picked his date whenever he wanted. That's strange for someone who is willing to invest in the game and loves it.....Then he won't let is be a WPA sanctioned tournament. You pay a fee to the WPA who will invest it back in pool and they make sure the calander is free on the dates wich garantees the top players.

Then we have the scam background of the organisator and the very sick headsponser. Sure Mr. Trudeau has got a cure for cancer and ALL other diseases you only have to buy his book or cd.......

There are even convictions for him in this...


http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm

http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/FTCActions/trudeau.html

He even changes the rules like he wants them. Same if I start now a golf tour with 100 billion dollars. In this tour you cannot us a golfstick but you should use a que... because I think this is more fair and will give a real champion........

I will keep it nice, if he wants to invest in pool he got a very strange way of showing it and going against all pool organisation in the world....

 

[T411]

Sweating is not the correct word. They are very scared that this person is a wild gun without any feeling for the sport. He doesn't care about other tournaments (who are there for many year) but he picked his date whenever he wanted. That's strange for someone who is willing to invest in the game and loves it.....Then he won't let is be a WPA sanctioned tournament. You pay a fee to the WPA who will invest it back in pool and they make sure the calander is free on the dates wich garantees the top players.

Then we have the scam background of the organisator and the very sick headsponser. Sure Mr. Trudeau has got a cure for cancer and ALL other diseases you only have to buy his book or cd.......

There are even convictions for him in this...


http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm

http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/FTCActions/trudeau.html

He even changes the rules like he wants them. Same if I start now a golf tour with 100 billion dollars. In this tour you cannot us a golfstick but you should use a que... because I think this is more fair and will give a real champion........

I will keep it nice, if he wants to invest in pool he got a very strange way of showing it and going against all pool organisation in the world....

I happen to like the rules that Trudeau is implementing;
Slow-nap cloth
Winner breaks instead of alternate break
No jump cues
Small pockets
I wish the nine ball tours or tournaments would be played with the “old” nine ball rules.
By the way there are rules in golf that outline and restrict the size of golf clubs.

 

[AuntyDan]

In many countries, the national member of the WPA gets money from the government because of the legitimacy of the WPA and the WCBS and the recognition of the IOC.

Many people posting in the IPT threads seem to think that the future of pool is somehow connected to the US, or that the US is the largest market for it. I don't think either of those is true. I think the future champions are mostly going to be from Europe and Asia, and the largest markest for pool are there.

This is a good and bad point Bob. I could be wrong but I'd guess 90% of the posters and readers of this forum are based in the USA. (Does Mike have any stats on this?) Additionally the US has to be one of the most under-developed regions for professional cue sports in the world, in terms of population wealth and the number of people who actively participate in the game. The IPT is, despite the "I" being for "International", just an USA organization at present. It is saying it is going to do most of the things that players in the US have wanted for a long time. Combine this with the woeful lack of development of US cue sports from the WPA or anyone else and it is easy to see why US-based players are excited about it.

So you are right, the WPA has more legitimacy on the world-wide stage than other US-only organizations, but at the same time this entirely misses the point of why people in the US are happy to see the IPT.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Just out of idle curiosity, how many people might the WPA 'giant bureacracy' employ ? Any idea if they have a 'giant' budget to go with that ? I'm poking a little fun here, because I doubt that the WPA is very gigantic in any respect, but seriously, how many folks might be on their fulltime payroll ?

Dave

I missed this earlier Dave.

I'm not sure but I guess there are hundreds of people under the World Confederation of Billiard Sports umbrella that includes the WPA, International Snooker and Billiard Fedration and World Snooker and Carom (??) whose majority of income comes from their official positions. Their moneys come from league dues, event sanctioning and in some countries government pay.

Many of them would suffer a loss I imagine if the WCBS took a tumble.

If the IPT achieves success going it alone, they will certainly lose credibility, and potentially their monetary support could be at risk.

The use of the world gigantic was probably inappropriate, it would be better to say 'extremely' bureacratic.

 

[Colin Colenso]

In many countries, the national member of the WPA gets money from the government because of the legitimacy of the WPA and the WCBS and the recognition of the IOC.

That's true, but I don't think it is a good thing.

He who pays the piper calls the tunes. Giving a government bureaucrat the final word in all your business affairs does not lead to successful business. I'm familiar with how this works in real world practice and it makes it almost impossible to develop the game effectively, which must be done as a business, with happy sponsors and media.

Many people posting in the IPT threads seem to think that the future of pool is somehow connected to the US, or that the US is the largest market for it. I don't think either of those is true. I think the future champions are mostly going to be from Europe and Asia, and the largest markest for pool are there.

Yes, the game is groing in Europe and also Asia and could have good potential, but it is still a pretty small budget affair when you consider the Asian San Miguel Tour is the biggest tour in the game with US$50k per event, despite reaching audiences of tens of millions.

I still believe the US is the biggest untapped market. Look at what poker could do in the US market with the many channels of revenue and much higher advertising rates per viewer in the US compared to Asia.

I hope the sport could blossom in the US and then creep into the Asian and European markets creating a fantastic real International Tour, where the actual Top 40 players can be at 6-10 strong international events each year.

 

[HittMan]

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If the IPT venture were to fail:

1. In the years in which IPT exists, the vitality of some other events, even organizations may be threatened, as the IPT events will surely conflcit with the schedules of some of the existinfg . If the result is a reduction in tournament sanctioning fees that land in the hands of an organization that reinvests such funds into the sport, then it can be a negative.

This is the way of the world and competition...negative for some, positive for others. Shouldn't the players go where they can earn a living or the most money?

2. If the venture proved a disreputable scam, and many fear this as an often discredited, though successful, businessman is at the helm, it could possibly reenforce (perhaps, even add to) the negative image of pool players, often viewed by the public as inclined to sacrifice their integrity for a buck. In such a scenario, potential sponsors of pro pool would have to wrestle with the possibility that some of the players were in on the scam, and might steer clear of this sport.

How much further away will they have to get to be GONE?

3. There is at least the possibility that some dissension in the ranks of pro players could result from this venture.

How much dissention was in the ranks prior to Mr. Trudeau's announcement? How big a truck has to run over you before you look both ways when you cross the street? It appears the majority of pro players already don't make decisions based on the "good of the sport". Maybe a little dissention will be good for them...none of the players are "bigger" than the game or "owed" by the game...they are participants and deserve EXACTLY what they can earn...not a cent more or less. At the end of the day, what they earn will be decided by what they PROVE they are worth in the market...so far that hasn't been very high.

Unfortunately, it's not a "we've got nothing to lose" situation.

Quite right...we have to lose several entities and maybe some players with marginal (at best) performance and decision making ability. Do you really think that "Joe/Jane Public" will actually know the difference between the #1 player and the #200 player if they aren't carefully educated somehow (by the media or personal research)? The answer is "NO", they will believe whatever the tube tells them and be quite happy with it. We seem to be stuck on the idea that people will only want to watch "the best" players...they just want to be entertained and to be able to "pull" for their favorite personality. Right now, we can't even seem to provide them with this simple formula because we can't legitimize ourselves.

I would also like to point out that "non-profit" is an accounting term that does NOT mean "not-for gain" at any level. I would have to see the books of this "non-profit" before I make a judgement as to their level of altruism. However, I can assure you there are salaries paid and contracts negotiated to someone's benefit...can you actually say you know anything about this organization?

 

[Bob Jewett]

There is an invitational tournament or two scheduled...but the rest are open to anyone that pays the $899- membership fee. It is there on the site...just keep looking.

Yes, I see it in the chat transcript now. The 150 will be selected the first year, are the invitees to the invitationals and seeded in the opens. The bottom 50 of the 150 drop out at the end of each year.

Personally, I think 150 is too many. The matches should be long and the tournaments should take no more than Frii-Sat-Sun. 32 players is more than enough to make lots of footage for TV, and the also-rans are just a bother. The WPC has one TV table, and it's plenty to generate 60 hours of live broadcast each year.

 

[SlimShafty]

Yes, I see it in the chat transcript now. The 150 will be selected the first year, are the invitees to the invitationals and seeded in the opens. The bottom 50 of the 150 drop out at the end of each year.

Personally, I think 150 is too many. The matches should be long and the tournaments should take no more than Frii-Sat-Sun. 32 players is more than enough to make lots of footage for TV, and the also-rans are just a bother. The WPC has one TV table, and it's plenty to generate 60 hours of live broadcast each year.

32 players would not be as good for the sports health, I could see 100 maybe. I'm sure the 150 may have to be tweak after they see how much money they can generate from advertising in the future, but should still end up between 100-150. There will not be a lack of quality in the 150 players, and if the IPT has great success you will see another tour pop up for all the ones trying to make it into the IPT.

The TV format I believe will not be limited to one table or 2 tables, I would imagine most of the tables will be covered, in a format very similar to the PGA, cutting away and jumping from table to table following the top players and staying for a few shots or an entire rack, and also showing amazing shots in replay just like the PGA. The main problem today with pool on TV, is the average player or would be player does not feel like sitting through an entire match, especially if said match is between 2 players they don't want to see.

This format has major potential, but it will still be an uphill battle to get it on TV.

 

[Jimmy M.]

I read this letter a few days ago. If the WPA has any valid concerns, they sure get lost in the overall message of "we want our cut". That's all I got from the letter.

 

[T411]

The TV format I believe will not be limited to one table or 2 tables, I would imagine most of the tables will be covered, in a format very similar to the PGA, cutting away and jumping from table to table following the top players and staying for a few shots or an entire rack, and also showing amazing shots in replay just like the PGA. The main problem today with pool on TV, is the average player or would be player does not feel like sitting through an entire match, especially if said match is between 2 players they don't want to see.

I think you are right SS, I myself think pool is way more exciting than golf (and I by no means am trying to knock the sport), and I think people that may not even know much about the game would be pulled into pool on TV with this format.

 

[Rickw]

So far, from what I've read, I think this IPT is going to be a good thing, I hope!! The only thing in the initial letter that has some credence for me is when he mentions Efren and the fact that he should be considered the world champion, not Mike sigel. I'm sure this doesn't bother Efren but it should. I would hope that the IPT would eventually allow Efren to play for the title. I kind of get the feeling this IPT may be more about personalities and who is more appealing to an audience than who is the better player. I certainly hope I'm wrong about this. I read somewhere that Mr Trudeau and Mike Sigel are pretty good friends too.

 

[T411]

I read this letter a few days ago. If the WPA has any valid concerns, they sure get lost in the overall message of "we want our cut". That's all I got from the letter.

I agree Jimmy, if the IPT is such a bad deal it will fall on its face and the WPA will be happy and word about the IPT from WPA would not have to have been muttered.
By the way, we all call the Super Bowl Champions, the World Series Champions, NBA Champions, “World Champions”; what other “Champions” from around the world do these teams play to be called “World Champions”? Why does it matter who the Governing bodies are? I do not think the IPT needs the WPA.

 

[JustPlay]

Sweating is not the correct word. They are very scared that this person is a wild gun without any feeling for the sport. He doesn't care about other tournaments (who are there for many year) but he picked his date whenever he wanted. That's strange for someone who is willing to invest in the game and loves it.....Then he won't let is be a WPA sanctioned tournament. You pay a fee to the WPA who will invest it back in pool and they make sure the calander is free on the dates wich garantees the top players.

Then we have the scam background of the organisator and the very sick headsponser. Sure Mr. Trudeau has got a cure for cancer and ALL other diseases you only have to buy his book or cd......

.....He even changes the rules like he wants them. Same if I start now a golf tour with 100 billion dollars. In this tour you cannot us a golfstick but you should use a que... because I think this is more fair and will give a real champion........

I will keep it nice, if he wants to invest in pool he got a very strange way of showing it and going against all pool organisation in the world....

Kevin Treadau is the Money behind the IPT. Mike Sigel is the one in the control booth making the decisions. Kevin and Mike are good friend and have been for many years. If they were not friends then it is a real possibility that this event or any pool event with this kind of money would never happen (d).

If Mike Sigel wanted to start his own tour, Kevin would back him 100%, because they are friends and Kevin has that kind of money to do it. It is really the direction that Sigel wants this event to go in that will dictate the future of this event. I hope this event actually grows into something special ( a tour or yearly event) over the next few years. All we can do is wait and see....

 

[pete lafond]

Kevin Treadau is the Money behind the IPT. Mike Sigel is the one in the control booth making the decisions. Kevin and Mike are good friend and have been for many years. If they were not friends then it is a real possibility that this event or any pool event with this kind of money would never happen (d).

If Mike Sigel wanted to start his own tour, Kevin would back him 100%, because they are friends and Kevin has that kind of money to do it. It is really the direction that Sigel wants this event to go in that will dictate the future of this event. I hope this event actually grows into something special ( a tour or yearly event) over the next few years. All we can do is wait and see....

I would doubt that Mike controls this. KT controls the whole thing. Mike may have some ideas and he may sell them to KT but KT makes all final decisions. No way in this world would a financially wealthy person throw money at something without making all the decisions. Just does not happen unless he is mentally insane. Friends or not, when it comes to money that is a separate issue. KT is throwing money at this because he sees a winner. If he loses, so what, its off to another venture. But he has a plan. Mike may have helped put the plan together, but can only make decisions based on what KT allows him to make decisions on and I could almost guarantee that there are parameters around it.