I asked this in the main forum and got no replies so it is either a really dumb question or something everyone else knows.What would be the expected life of a quality maple shaft assuming proper care(no sanding,no leaving in car or garage,etc.) if it sees 2-4 hours of daily use?By expected life i guess i am asking how long before it would need to be replaced? Thanks,M.S.
Shaft Life
- Thread starter whiteoak
- Start date
Shaft life
The Q that I play with 4-5 times a week( 3-4 hours a day), is one that I made for myself, 7 years ago. It stated out as 13mm at the tip. With each tip change the tip size will become SLIGHTLY smaller. This Q still measures 12.75mm & will probably still be a great playing Q for another 5 years. By that time it will be under 12.5 & I will no longer feel comfortable with the size of the shaft. HOWEVER, I have some customers, who needlessly grind away on their tips & have 4-5 tips replaced a year. A couple of years is all they will get from a shaft. "IF IT AIN'T BROKE , DON'T FIX IT". In other words if you leave the tip alone & only have it replaced, when you need it, a shaft could last a lifetime...JER
whiteoak said:
The Q that I play with 4-5 times a week( 3-4 hours a day), is one that I made for myself, 7 years ago. It stated out as 13mm at the tip. With each tip change the tip size will become SLIGHTLY smaller. This Q still measures 12.75mm & will probably still be a great playing Q for another 5 years. By that time it will be under 12.5 & I will no longer feel comfortable with the size of the shaft. HOWEVER, I have some customers, who needlessly grind away on their tips & have 4-5 tips replaced a year. A couple of years is all they will get from a shaft. "IF IT AIN'T BROKE , DON'T FIX IT". In other words if you leave the tip alone & only have it replaced, when you need it, a shaft could last a lifetime...JER
buddha162 said:
I presume that JER is referring to the tip/ferrule diameter. With every change of the cue tip, there is always a need to sand the side of the tip to make sure that it is flushed with the ferrule. After numerous tip changes, I would think that the tip/ferrule diameter will shrink a bit.
Do feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Basic Cue Care
Yes - the tip and ferrule diameter will change slightly - but you can always change out the ferrule if it becomes to small - shafts really should last. I have a josswest that is 30 years old and still plays and rolls great. They key is get a good cue from a custom cuemaker who uses quality wood and care for it like you would art - Richard Black sends a little manual on caring for his cues - things like cleaning the shaft with a damp cloth, a little pledge from time to time on the butt and forearms, cleaning the leather wrap with a little saddle soap, and putting a little baby oil on your ivory ferrules. Stay away from sandpaper unless you have a lathe. I guess I am a little anal about my cues but I get comments all the time like "Is that cue brand new"?
Yes - the tip and ferrule diameter will change slightly - but you can always change out the ferrule if it becomes to small - shafts really should last. I have a josswest that is 30 years old and still plays and rolls great. They key is get a good cue from a custom cuemaker who uses quality wood and care for it like you would art - Richard Black sends a little manual on caring for his cues - things like cleaning the shaft with a damp cloth, a little pledge from time to time on the butt and forearms, cleaning the leather wrap with a little saddle soap, and putting a little baby oil on your ivory ferrules. Stay away from sandpaper unless you have a lathe. I guess I am a little anal about my cues but I get comments all the time like "Is that cue brand new"?
The cue I am playing with is 15 years old. Both shaft are slightly warped now. I keep thinking I will build me another shaft but never seem to get around to it. It still plays great.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
Run the Century said:
OK, but WHY ? Like Buddha162 I would like to understand what causes the tip and ferrule diameter to shrink over time. This does not seem reasonable to me, and want to know if my intuition on long term material stability is off or there is some other dynamic at work (like a cuemaker turning the ferrule down slightly every time they do a tip replacement).
Dave
When a tip is replaced, it is placed oversized on the face of the ferule. The tip is turned down/shaped with a tool or razorblade, and then burnished a bit so that it becomes flush with the ferule. Over years of changing tips, that very small amount of sanding/burnishing so the tip is flush with the ferule might reduce the size of the ferule ever so slightly...replace the tip a LOT like one poster suggested, and this very small amount adds up. If it ever adds up enough to be noticeable, just replace the ferule as was mentioned.
If you had the ferule replaced every 3 months for so many years, the same thing could begin to happen for the first inch or so of the shaft when the installer makes the new ferule flush with the shaft.
Kelly
If you had the ferule replaced every 3 months for so many years, the same thing could begin to happen for the first inch or so of the shaft when the installer makes the new ferule flush with the shaft.
Kelly
Kelly_Guy said:
Whew, I was worried about my understanding of long term stability ... and it is the actions of the tip replacer who causes the shrinkage. I replace my own tips, centering a 12.5mm Elk Master on a 12.5mm ferrule. I shape the tip tip after letting the glue set and cure, then I chalk and play. I do not sand, burnish, or turn my cue/ferrule/tip. I guess my shaft will last forever !
BTW, based on this concept of how a ferrule shrinks, would a shaft shrink due to the repeated abrassion from ones bridge hand ?
Dave
I doubt normal play would wear down the end of a shaft. Maybe if you played with it a couple hundred years. Hard maple isn't that flimsy, and hands aren't that rough. My it's George shafts are about 14 years old. The shrinkage of diameter close to the ferule is most assuredly do to me cleaning them and using a green pad when I was young and didn't know any better, and the shrinkage isn't much anyway. They still play great, still straight.
In my opinion, if you take good care of a shaft and observe proper maintenance, and they are high quality and don't end up warping on you, your eyes will fail you before the shafts do.
Kelly
In my opinion, if you take good care of a shaft and observe proper maintenance, and they are high quality and don't end up warping on you, your eyes will fail you before the shafts do.
Kelly
Shaft life
The sanding of the tip & ferrule will reduce the diameter of the tip & ferrule & not the shaft. I didn't make that very clear. Remember that the thickness of most notebook paper is about .003 of an inch. That's about what is taken off of the ferrule, every time a tip is replaced(sometimes more). After 10 new tips, or .030-.040. You will have reduced your ferrule size by almost a full millimeter. I also have players, bring me their shafts for cleaning, every time there is a league playoff, or big match. That means I steam the dents out, clean, sand VERY LIGHTLY, burnish & seal. That also removes about .003. SO if you have it cleaned 10 times, you now have a SHAFT that has been greatly reduced in size...JER
The sanding of the tip & ferrule will reduce the diameter of the tip & ferrule & not the shaft. I didn't make that very clear. Remember that the thickness of most notebook paper is about .003 of an inch. That's about what is taken off of the ferrule, every time a tip is replaced(sometimes more). After 10 new tips, or .030-.040. You will have reduced your ferrule size by almost a full millimeter. I also have players, bring me their shafts for cleaning, every time there is a league playoff, or big match. That means I steam the dents out, clean, sand VERY LIGHTLY, burnish & seal. That also removes about .003. SO if you have it cleaned 10 times, you now have a SHAFT that has been greatly reduced in size...JER
I think in reality the decimal point should be moved another spot from .003" to .0003". I did watch a cuemaker repairing cues at a show who cleaned the shaft with 220 sandpaper instead of using cleaner and 400 and 600 grit sand paper. His method was appalling to me, and he is a very well known cuemaker. He never posts on here so no flames please. Some cuemakers try to repair cues like they were building the shaft from scratch and that won't work. Thankfully most cuemakers started off as repairmen and know how to baby a used cue while on the lathe. Not knocking anyone here just stating that .003" seems to have been a mistake. But lets take my figure of .0003" per tip which may be high also. But if you put on 30 tips you lose .009" total which is just under 1/4mm. I think that is a little high but it is a little more realistic provided you never touch the ferrule with anything coarser than 400 grit sandpaper. I think it would be less if you used nothing coarser than 600 grit. As Sherm says now I say, "Just More Hot Air."
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
I learned early on to stay off the ferulle as much as posible. I only hit them with 400 and up, unless the ferulle is really swelled and over sized to the shaft. I try to stay with 600, but sometimes the scratches are too much and need alittle 400.
I get ferrules in all the time that looks like the back yard guy got ahold of them. the ferrules are usually tapered at the end from being hand sanded with emery cloth. Even had one guy tell me he was using a grinder/sander somehow to trim the tips. Sometimes they are so bad, I have no choice, but to recomend a new ferrule.
Most experienced repair guys pride theirself on taking away as little material as they have to. Sometimes with some materials, you have some minor pits left in the ferrules that were too deep, and bad to get out, but the ferrule and shaft will last alot longer. If Your repair guy is tapering the end of the ferrules, then you may want to shop around, because more then likely they are doing them By hand, and they won't last long like that. I'm not saying a decent job can't be done By hand, just that if the ferulle's tapered on the end, watch out.
When cleaning a shaft I only sand just enough to break the seal cote, and open the grain alittle so the chalk and dirt can be drawn out, and any dents can be steamed, then it's resealed, buffed, and finished to the customers preffered style. My whole mindset is take as little off as is absolutly needed to get the job done. I've heard people say the scotch-brite pads don't take much material away, but from what I see, over time they will widdle a shaft down to a snooker shaft, they will cause the chalk to get embedded, and sometimes seem to stain the shafts the color of the pad It'self.
If you find a good repair guy that takes care of you, then stick by him and your shaft will last longer. Also take his advice on extending the life of your shaft very seriously, and you should have many years of life out of your shaft. Ofcoarse when it comes to warping, since it's wood, some shafts just have a mind of their own, and sometimes that's the determinating factor.
Good Luck, Greg
I get ferrules in all the time that looks like the back yard guy got ahold of them. the ferrules are usually tapered at the end from being hand sanded with emery cloth. Even had one guy tell me he was using a grinder/sander somehow to trim the tips. Sometimes they are so bad, I have no choice, but to recomend a new ferrule.
Most experienced repair guys pride theirself on taking away as little material as they have to. Sometimes with some materials, you have some minor pits left in the ferrules that were too deep, and bad to get out, but the ferrule and shaft will last alot longer. If Your repair guy is tapering the end of the ferrules, then you may want to shop around, because more then likely they are doing them By hand, and they won't last long like that. I'm not saying a decent job can't be done By hand, just that if the ferulle's tapered on the end, watch out.
When cleaning a shaft I only sand just enough to break the seal cote, and open the grain alittle so the chalk and dirt can be drawn out, and any dents can be steamed, then it's resealed, buffed, and finished to the customers preffered style. My whole mindset is take as little off as is absolutly needed to get the job done. I've heard people say the scotch-brite pads don't take much material away, but from what I see, over time they will widdle a shaft down to a snooker shaft, they will cause the chalk to get embedded, and sometimes seem to stain the shafts the color of the pad It'self.
If you find a good repair guy that takes care of you, then stick by him and your shaft will last longer. Also take his advice on extending the life of your shaft very seriously, and you should have many years of life out of your shaft. Ofcoarse when it comes to warping, since it's wood, some shafts just have a mind of their own, and sometimes that's the determinating factor.
Good Luck, Greg
shaft life
Sorry Chris, I just put a tip on & measured the before & after diameter. After putting the tip on, cutting the sides of tip down to .0005 (that's 1/2 of a thousands of an inch, for some who might not know), over size. I used 400,then 600, then 1000 grit sandpaper. I remeasured & the diameter of the ferrule was .003(3 thousands of an inch), smaller. Some of you try it & see what you get. When I clean a shaft, I LIGHTLY sand with 400 grit, then steam out any dents. Then I use a cleaning solution to get out the chalk & dirt. Then I buff the shaft dry. Then I Lightly sand with 600 grit. Then I raise the grain & LIGHTLY sand with 1000 grit. Then I raise the grain & LIGHTLY sand with 1500 grit. Then burnish the shaft & use a liquid sealer. When that drys I burnish again. I've measured the before & after & it is .003 smaller after the cleaning process. Again try it & tell me what you get...JER
cueman said:
Sorry Chris, I just put a tip on & measured the before & after diameter. After putting the tip on, cutting the sides of tip down to .0005 (that's 1/2 of a thousands of an inch, for some who might not know), over size. I used 400,then 600, then 1000 grit sandpaper. I remeasured & the diameter of the ferrule was .003(3 thousands of an inch), smaller. Some of you try it & see what you get. When I clean a shaft, I LIGHTLY sand with 400 grit, then steam out any dents. Then I use a cleaning solution to get out the chalk & dirt. Then I buff the shaft dry. Then I Lightly sand with 600 grit. Then I raise the grain & LIGHTLY sand with 1000 grit. Then I raise the grain & LIGHTLY sand with 1500 grit. Then burnish the shaft & use a liquid sealer. When that drys I burnish again. I've measured the before & after & it is .003 smaller after the cleaning process. Again try it & tell me what you get...JER
> I guess a lot of you have really particular customers,but you make a good point. In just about every single retip/cleaning I've done over the years,the players here want the shaft as clean as I can possibly get it,regardless of what I have to do to get it that way. Some of the shafts I see are so dirty and dented up nothing short of a steaming hot Scotch-Brite sponge will clean them,and I wind up starting with 220 to clean up extremely filthy,scratched up,improperly chalked ferrules. Of course I explain that in really bad cases I might wind up taking off .005 or more,the reply I always get is "whatever you have to do,that isn't enough for me to notice". When working on my own cues or cues I have worked on before and are not in as bad of shape,I try to keep my sanding down to .003 or less,and eliminate the ridge or seam at the ferrule joint as well. I've found that the Magic Eraser cleans really well and takes out enough of the small dents and pockets of dirt that I can usually begin sanding with 600,or 400 at the worst. I have also tried the Magic Eraser by hand,and not spinning in the lathe and have found it to also work very well,and more often than not I don't have to use anything but 1500 afterwards,on my own shafts at least. Tommy D.
shaft life
TOMMY-D check you're PM...JER
TOMMY-D check you're PM...JER
> Perhaps I need to clarify my methods. I am not entirely matching the tip to the ferrule using sandpaper,I use the same utility blade pretty much everyone uses along with the carbide cutter in the tool post. On all tips except Elk Masters,I start by taking the blade and laying it flat on the ferrule,with the cutting edge facing me,and gently pull the blade towards me,cutting the bottom of the tip first,this helps me get rid of most of the glue bead and keeps the carbide cutter off the edge of the ferrule once I get close. Once I do this,I loosen the chuck and slide the tip further back in the collet,leaving about 1/2 sticking out for rigidity when cutting with the toolpost. I take small cuts with the carriage,and take several cleanup cuts before dialing in any further. Once I get within .005 or so,I pull the shaft further out in the collet to get away from the chuck and trim the rest with the blade,then shape. The tip is usually totally flush the first time I hit it with 400. On Elk Masters,I use the blade entirely,and first seal the sides with thin CA glue,for me this works best because they are so soft it can be a pain to get them cut just right. When I said I try to keep my sanding to .003 or under,I meant shaft wood too,not just the ferrule. I appreciate all comments and possible new methods,I am constantly looking to improve. Tommy D.
I just go with the bare minimum grit to get the job done, If your doing that then your doing the best you can. A steamer can help save some diameter also. You have to break the shiny areas left in the middle by hand with a folded piece of paper or something, and without removing too much material, because you need as much wood around it as possible to expand and fill the dent.
Unsealed shafts can be a pain to even get reasonably clean, and rarely clean up perfectly. I don't use bleach, but sometimes a cleaner that pushes the dirt to the surface works well. I quit using scotch-brites along time ago. I do use the magic erasers sometimes though. I use to use a few things on My own shafts that cleaned well, but I would never use them on a customer shaft, because they envolved wetting the shaft more then I would take the risk on with someone else's shaft. My personal shafts don't get that dirty anymore, because I keep them sealed well from the get go. The first time you work on a customer's shaft is usually the worst.
I also seal every shaft really good after I work on It. If the player does'nt like the buffed sealer then I knock the top off for them to give them the feel they like. This not also seals their shaft well, but saves me alot of work the next time I have to work on that shaft. Sometimes the sealer helps fill the ferrule issue Where it meets the wood, but not in the really extreme cases.
Trimming the tip, I have found that using the blade too soon causes the knife to be too unstable and jumpy, but if you bite down too hard and hold It tighter, It can tear some tips up. or after trimming with the tool too close to the ferrule, It's hard to get a good bite on the edge of the tip, and can make the utility knife scratch the ferrule just enough to require sanding, so what I do is take the tip down with the tool, but leaving a decent lip there still to get a bite on, and It cuts alot smoother requiring very minimal sanding, unless the ferrule Is pitted bad to begin with.
Some shafts are so bad, you just do the best you can, and save what diameter you can. I know too well that they are time consuming & hardly seem worth the time, effort, and little bit of money you get for It when you get a shaft in like that, but If they end up being a regular customer, It will pay off later down the road. I get them quite a bit, and even though I'm not very impressed with how clean I got them all the time, the customers still seem overwelmed by the difference, and bring their work to me. They also tell people they know about you. I get lucky sometimes, and a shaft that looked really bad, actually cleans up easy for me.
Greg
Unsealed shafts can be a pain to even get reasonably clean, and rarely clean up perfectly. I don't use bleach, but sometimes a cleaner that pushes the dirt to the surface works well. I quit using scotch-brites along time ago. I do use the magic erasers sometimes though. I use to use a few things on My own shafts that cleaned well, but I would never use them on a customer shaft, because they envolved wetting the shaft more then I would take the risk on with someone else's shaft. My personal shafts don't get that dirty anymore, because I keep them sealed well from the get go. The first time you work on a customer's shaft is usually the worst.
I also seal every shaft really good after I work on It. If the player does'nt like the buffed sealer then I knock the top off for them to give them the feel they like. This not also seals their shaft well, but saves me alot of work the next time I have to work on that shaft. Sometimes the sealer helps fill the ferrule issue Where it meets the wood, but not in the really extreme cases.
Trimming the tip, I have found that using the blade too soon causes the knife to be too unstable and jumpy, but if you bite down too hard and hold It tighter, It can tear some tips up. or after trimming with the tool too close to the ferrule, It's hard to get a good bite on the edge of the tip, and can make the utility knife scratch the ferrule just enough to require sanding, so what I do is take the tip down with the tool, but leaving a decent lip there still to get a bite on, and It cuts alot smoother requiring very minimal sanding, unless the ferrule Is pitted bad to begin with.
Some shafts are so bad, you just do the best you can, and save what diameter you can. I know too well that they are time consuming & hardly seem worth the time, effort, and little bit of money you get for It when you get a shaft in like that, but If they end up being a regular customer, It will pay off later down the road. I get them quite a bit, and even though I'm not very impressed with how clean I got them all the time, the customers still seem overwelmed by the difference, and bring their work to me. They also tell people they know about you. I get lucky sometimes, and a shaft that looked really bad, actually cleans up easy for me.
Greg