Shaft Preferences???

[TATE]

A smart gambler would bet anyone that if 20-30 shafts made by top custom and production cue makers, including laminated, were all painted black that after hitting with each of them that no one would bet (much) they knew which ones were laminated. It's just like the game of pool, the mental perception is much greater than the physical perception.

I guarantee you this is not right. If these shafts fit my cue, I am confident that I could pick a Predator from the other shafts by it's feel, sound, and balance. I could almost pick it out by weight alone. I could pick out the lowest squirt shafts (for my stroke) after hitting balls a few minutes even if they all looked the same.

Chris

 

[TATE]

Yes I have played with a predator shaft I have one sitting at my house now do you want to buy it?? All I am saying is a shaft isnt going to make you play better just like a 10,000 cue isnt going to make you play better! You have to know how to shoot! It seems that when everyone starts something they look for that equipment that will make them #1 after a week of playing, its not just in billiards but all sports. If you get a fiberglass golf club as you pointed out yeah you may hit the ball further but does it magically make you hit it straight down the fairway NO it doesnt!! Just like a predator shaft isnt going to make you miss less!! The only thing that will make you miss less is PRACTICE!! Besides how often do you need to put side spin on a ball? How often you need to draw a cue ball 2 tables?? Not very often!! Also if you cant aim with out a predator shaft then you have some serious problems!! If you learn how to play it doesnt matter what equipment you have!! As long as its decent you should be able to play!! But you can keep using your magic stick! because it makes you miss less!! haha that makes me laugh!!

I am not trying to corner you or put you down, but a Predator is more accurate than a conventional shaft, therefore you miss less shots and play better position. A player has to get to a strong run-out level to experience all the benefits. For the players who spin the ball a lot (which is all the good players), it makes a huge difference because the shaft has no "spine" and a lot less squirt. This is why the pros use it.

Chris

 

[Billy_Bob]

I am just starting out playing seriously. What I have done first is to learn all I can about the game and the equipment available (still learning all I can).

One thing I learned was about cue ball deflection or squirt. And that different shafts will deflect the cue ball differently.

I am looking at this long term, so it seems to me that I will be better off starting out playing with a cue which has specific characteristics (one of those being a "know" amount of cue ball deflection as well as low deflection).

So if my cue is damaged or stolen, I can go out and buy another cue/shaft which will play exactly the same.

I feel you can get any cue/shaft and learn to play with it. And with most shots, any cue will do. But for long shots using english, not all cues/shafts play the same.

So I went with a Predator 314 shaft which has lower deflection *and* can be replaced with the same shaft should my cue be damaged or stolen.

I will spend a lot of time learning how to shoot various shots. It will be nice to not have to worry about re-learning some shots/aiming if something happens to my cue.

I have an exact brand of tip, exact hardness of tip, exact shape of tip (nickel, dime, etc.) and a shaft with an exact amount of deflection. I feel this will help me to play more consistently in the long run.

I see other players who don't know what type of tip they have, don't know what shape their tip is, and don't know anything about cue ball deflection. They don't ever shape their tips. Then they get a new tip installed or get a new cue. You can hear them saying: "I'll play better once I get used to this new tip/cue." Well I have eliminated this problem. If I get a new tip/shaft, it will play exactly the same as what I have now.

 

[drivermaker]

Well, more like the big fat hair on your ass. You just drive that old Stanley Steamer down here and we'll do a couple of bets. We'll race your Model T though Malibu Canyon against my Audi, then we'll go to the driving range and you can use a gutta-percha and a hickory, and I'll use a Titleist and a Big Bertha, then we'll go to the shooting range and shoot some targets at 400 yards, your ball and cap long rifle against my Sako .308 with a 20X scope.

Then we'll shoot a little 9 ball, your expensive, highly sought after, beautiful frameable custom cue (with an old style shaft) against my expensive, highly sought after, beautiful frameable custom cue bastardized with a Predator.

Naawww ... Drivermaker, I accept you the way you are despite your old fashioned tools.

Chris

You left out flipping baseball or football cards. My old guys against your new players. I guess that won't matter though, it still comes down to who the better flipper is. I'm thinkin' that you're thinkin' that a Predator is really a lot better, more advanced, and more everything than it really is. It ain't. If so, why doesn't EVERYONE on the road or pro circuit use one? They can't ALL be that old fashioned traditionalists. BTW, how much caffeine did you take in today? WOW...

 

[drivermaker]

I am just starting out playing seriously.

So if my cue is damaged or stolen, I can go out and buy another cue/shaft which will play exactly the same.

I will spend a lot of time learning how to shoot various shots. It will be nice to not have to worry about re-learning some shots/aiming if something happens to my cue.

Well I have eliminated this problem. If I get a new tip/shaft, it will play exactly the same as what I have now.

I think the more you play, the more you're going to realize what you said above isn't the way it's going to be. ALL shafts feel or play just a hair differently, be it a head hair, pubic hair, or an ass hair. Even with the BEST of shafts. You're going to find that especially true with a Predator due to the fact that their individual weights are all over the board. You'll be hard pressed to find one that weighs the exact gram weight as to what you're used to. If you don't think it matters as far as feel, balance, and other factors including spin and deflection...well, you're in for a big surprise. You'll be learning how to shoot all over again until you get used to it.

 

[vapoolplayer]

I am not trying to corner you or put you down, but a Predator is more accurate than a conventional shaft, therefore you miss less shots and play better position. A player has to get to a strong run-out level to experience all the benefits. For the players who spin the ball a lot (which is all the good players), it makes a huge difference because the shaft has no "spine" and a lot less squirt. This is why the pros use it.

Chris

just to make trouble..........lets take the some TOP pro players here. johnny archer, efren reyes, earl strickland.

out of those three which use a predator???

like i said, i'm just making trouble.

plenty pro's use a predator (such as tony robles, charlie williams) and plenty don't (the ones mentioned above)

point being, you can't use that in your defense, because plenty of them don't use predators.

you think if you give the three i listed above their game will get better??? doubt it. they will probably play equally as well with a predator or non predator shaft.

it ain't the shaft.......

VAP

 

[drivermaker]

just to make trouble..........lets take the some TOP pro players here. johnny archer, efren reyes, earl strickland.

you think if you give the three i listed above their game will get better??? doubt it. they will probably play equally as well with a predator or non predator shaft.

VAP

It just so happens that of the 3 you mentioned, they ALL have tried a Predator and DON'T shoot equally as well with it. They've openly stated that they played WORSE and it just wasn't for them.

 

[k-carson]

OK - I'll say it. It's not that Predator is so good, it's that the design of conventional shafts is so incredibly outdated. Have you ever actually played with a Predator? We are talking 100 year old designs here versus a modern technological breakthough. It's like comparing todays golf clubs to the old wooden shafted ones made in 1900, or an old turn-of-the-century tennis racket vesus todays large headed ones, or old flat wooden snow ski against todays fiberglass models. You're like one of those guys with an old 7 iron averaging 100 yards talking about how good those old hickory's were.

It's not hype and it's not ridiculous - it's effective. It's not at all because of the extra spin either. It's the accuracy and consistency from shot to shot.

With a Predator, you will likely miss fewer shots, especially the ones that call for sidespin, and get out of position less too. How can your position play improve with a Predator? When your aim is not precise, cueball control cannot be very precise either.

Of course you can learn to play well with a high squirt shaft if you have top talent. There's no doubt about it - it's just that it's a lot more difficult.

Just look who's playing with Predator shafts and come to your own conclusions.

Predator Pro's


In addition to the top pro players, trust me there are a lot of top local players who swear by Predator. These players can cut a ball accurately to the width of a human hair - and you don't think they can tell the difference between shafts?

Chris

Actually Harvey Martin was laminating shafts and drilling holes in the ferrule end 75 years ago

 

[NOSAJ03]

personally i think its just a matter of preference. Like many of you said, everybody plays different, differents strokes for different people. Many people swear by predators and many swear by conventional shafts. By definition of opinion no one is wrong. Both sides can argue back and forth about whos shaft is better but its just going to be a stand still. I think the only error on our parts is trying to dispell the opposing opinion. There should be no arguement, just mutual respect from one player to the other.
Now, yes I do have a predator but I play with the shaft that came with my Omen. I like both. How Im feeling with determine which shaft Im going to use mainly because I only have a predator for my pechauer and not my omen. Now I do prefer the feel on the predator over my stock pechauer shaft but I think it is about the same feel of my omen. Really what it boils down to is just preference not a matter of whos right and wrong.

 

[drivermaker]

By definition of opinion no one is wrong. Both sides can argue back and forth about whos shaft is better but its just going to be a stand still. I think the only error on our parts is trying to dispell the opposing opinion. There should be no arguement, just mutual respect from one player to the other.
Really what it boils down to is just preference not a matter of whos right and wrong.

HUH??? WHAJOOSAY??? YO SHO' 'BOUT DAT???

 

[drivermaker]

A shaft in itself cannot be more "accurate," it can be more "forgiving," but not accurate. Accuracy comes from your aiming, and your stroke, not from a shaft.

Again, missing less shot and playing better position are two different things.

To play better position, you need to be able to hit the cue ball where you want to hit it, and to have the knowledge of how the cue ball would react when you strike it at different position. You also need to have a stroke to move the ball around the table consistently. What it all comes down to is the fundamentals of your game, not the shaft.

I know why you are saying you will not miss as much, because that is how you feel when you are making shots with spin which you could not make before with a regular shaft, so you think the 314 is better. But the fact is you could not make certain spin shots before because you were not good enough to make them. The pros like Archer, Rempe, Hall, Fisher, Corr...can make those shots with a convension shaft very consistently. Therefore, a 314 shaft will not help them to miss less.

One more thing, the butt of the cue and the balance is very important to me. A good balance allows me to accelerate the ball and to keep my cue stable through my stroke, a better constructed cue gives me more consistency and a nice feedback--at a higher level,these are more important things to look for.

Let me put it this way, if my cue throws the ball the same amount everytime I hit my ball at a certain spot at a certain speed, then that shot should be controllable. If you cannot control it, it is either because your cue does not produce the same amount of throw from shot to shot, or that your stroke is not consistent.

A 314 shaft does not make you miss less. But if you were not good enough to make certain shot, the 314 is more forgiving to help you to make them. However, why is it that you could not make those shots in the first place? It is not the shaft, it is you. The problem is still there whether you are using a 314 or not, it may make you feel like you are playing better, but it is not true.

Lastly, the pros got their 314 for free, some use them, some don't. Other than Alex, which world champion uses a 314?

Tiffany

Who is this masked lady??? I likes her......

 

[TATE]

A shaft in itself cannot be more "accurate," it can be more "forgiving," but not accurate. Accuracy comes from your aiming, and your stroke, not from a shaft.

Again, missing less shot and playing better position are two different things.

To play better position, you need to be able to hit the cue ball where you want to hit it, and to have the knowledge of how the cue ball would react when you strike it at different position. You also need to have a stroke to move the ball around the table consistently. What it all comes down to is the fundamentals of your game, not the shaft.

I know why you are saying you will not miss as much, because that is how you feel when you are making shots with spin which you could not make before with a regular shaft, so you think the 314 is better. But the fact is you could not make certain spin shots before because you were not good enough to make them. The pros like Archer, Rempe, Hall, Fisher, Corr...can make those shots with a convension shaft very consistently. Therefore, a 314 shaft will not help them to miss less.

One more thing, the butt of the cue and the balance is very important to me. A good balance allows me to accelerate the ball and to keep my cue stable through my stroke, a better constructed cue gives me more consistency and a nice feedback--at a higher level,these are more important things to look for.

Let me put it this way, if my cue throws the ball the same amount everytime I hit my ball at a certain spot at a certain speed, then that shot should be controllable. If you cannot control it, it is either because your cue does not produce the same amount of throw from shot to shot, or that your stroke is not consistent.

A 314 shaft does not make you miss less. But if you were not good enough to make certain shot, the 314 is more forgiving to help you to make them. However, why is it that you could not make those shots in the first place? It is not the shaft, it is you. The problem is still there whether you are using a 314 or not, it may make you feel like you are playing better, but it is not true.

Lastly, the pros got their 314 for free, some use them, some don't. Other than Alex, which world champion uses a 314?

Tiffany

Tiffany,

Yes, you're right. Good players can adjust to any crummy cue. That's why they should use a high squirt shaft. To prove that they can play good with inferior equipment. Last I looked, Earl was using a Cuetec and Johnny a Scorpion. You're right, it's a miracle they can play so well with this junk.

There is only one world champion and he uses a PREDATOR. He uses it not because it's free or because he's paid to. He uses it because it's better. The shaft is more accurate. It is more precise. It is better.

Chris

 

[JoeyInCali]

When a few pieces of wood are spliced together, they all came from different origins with different stiffness, density(weight), humidity, among other things. Therefore, it is impossible to expect radial consistency because the orientation of the shaft will result in different flex depending on which splice is heavier, which one is stiffer and so on. Now that is just looking at the splices on one shaft. When you compare different shafts, you will have one shaft that weight 3 oz, and then another one weight 3.8 oz, and you will have a few stifferer splices on one shaft on one side of the shaft, and on the other shaft, you will see whiter and lighter woods expect one which is darker and heavier...you will see one shaft featuring all spines in each and every lamination, and another shaft with almost no grain in each and every splice...

Tap, tap, tap.

 

[TATE]

Actually, what is the point of a lamination? You think all predator shafts will play the same because....

Finally, when a piece of blank is cut, do you honestly believe they will let the blank sit between turns, and if they do, for how long. Check to see if your shaft is straight, chances are, it is not 100%. It is probably not straight when you first got it. It is because of the internal stress which has not been properly released during the turning of the blank.

So, with so much differences in taper, weight, density, wood grain, weight distribution...etc from shaft to shaft, how can you expect to have the kind of "exact" consistency which you claimed?

Tiffany

You can put your theortical arguments out there, but they don't translate to real life. I have three Predator shafts which all play the same - at least I can't tell any difference - weigh within a few tenths of each other, and are all straight. Each was purchased at a different time.

Chris

 

[Billy_Bob]

...So, with so much differences in taper, weight, density, wood grain, weight distribution...etc from shaft to shaft, how can you expect to have the kind of "exact" consistency which you claimed?

Actually I have two 314 shafts (one is a spare). They both play the same so far as I am concerned.

Out of curiosity, I just weighted them on my accurate scale. Surprisingly they were both the same exact weight.

I would not expect *that* much accuracy, I am just happy if they just play basically the same - which they do.

 

[TATE]

There have been many world champions over the years. Chao played with a Gina, Ralf plays with a Joss, Mika played with a Capone, Elfren played with a Judd...all using a one piece shaft, and I would not call any of those cues junk or inferior equipment. I believe most people would pay more for the cues I mentioned than a predator cue, don't you agree?

A predator is just another shaft...it is not more accurate nor it is better. I have tried to explain it to you many time, please look up the definition of "accurate." It is more forgiving, but not more accurate. Alex uses it becasue he is used to the hit and he likes it.

Going back to the point you made about Archer playing with a "junk," rather than looking at it as a "miracle," have you ever considered may be it is the stroke?

Tiffany.

Tiffany,

These players all have their equipment tweaked quite a bit and try lots of different shafts, tapers, etc. to find the right formula for their stroke. They make the conventional shafts work for them, sometimes in unconventional ways.

You can build a low squirt conventional shaft if you know what you're doing. There are some cue makers who know the tricks. This involves tapers, ferrule materials, and even tips. If the grain is tight enough, the shaft will also would be consistent as far as the spine. I have a large cue collection with many conventional shafts. Out of maybe 90 shafts I have there are only maybe three or four that are nearly as low squirt as my Predators. This is why I say, better to use a Predator than to go through cues and shafts and tweaks to get a conventional shaft that works as well.

I also have some cues I would like to give to Johnny to try and wait for him to throw it right back to me after he misses the pocket by 4". Some of my old Palmers have screw on ferrules, and when you add that brass screw weight on to the end of the cue, it probably doubles the squirt. It's very hard to play with a cue like that no matter how good you are.

Johhny and Earl could probaly play without chalk and beat most people. That doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Chris

 

[TATE]

Richard

Excuse me, Richard, I thought I was talking to Tiffany.

Siding?

I play pool not snooker.

Chris

 

[drivermaker]

I agree that a cue is very important and I have a very nice cue. The balance, and the construction is the most important thing for me. The taper is also important and so is the tip. But the balance is the nuts in my opinion.

I am posting here not trying to pick a fight (although I do not really care... )but hoping that other posters would not fall for a myth and use/buy things for the wrong reasons.

Tiffany

Time to pass the torch...I'm retiring. Who is this masked lady? I love her...
(Just hopin' it's not a guy using a lady's name)

 

[ScottR]

Time to pass the torch...I'm retiring. Who is this masked lady? I love her...
(Just hopin' it's not a guy using a lady's name)

I think she sleeps with a 314.

 

[MrLucky]

Bob Jewitts Experiments with high speed cameras

in the so named Jacksonville Experiments by Bob Jewitt and others convinced me that there are definately some improvements that can be realized with a well made high tech shaft ! I was a doubter until seeing the high speed photos of cue / cue ball and tip interaction !